Is the God of the OT All-Powerful?

[Wrangler]

So God is unable to allow Evil to exist without Good?

So long as there is Free Will, no. It’d be like asking for light without shadow.

 

[37818]

So God is unable to allow Evil to exist without Good?

LOL. It is not God's limitation in that God is the infinite good. The problem is in order to have evil there must be some way a good can be hurt. Temporal good. Evil is not possible without a temporal good. Prove otherwise. BTW, the knowledge of good and evil was at first God's knowledge, see Genesis 3:22.

 

[Nakosis]

This is a question of theodicy.

Nevertheless, are you saying that God should be intervening in every day crime all over the world in order to be known as "all powerful"?

I hope you understand the question.

At least protect children, the innocent. The just of the article anyway.

I'm really more interested in what the Torah says about it. The author of the article was Jewish. I guess this doesn't mean she is a scholar but her view is that God need not be all-powerful.
What does the Torah support?

I see lots of arguments for an all-powerful God but are we interpreting the Torah out of a need to support our belief that God is all-powerful.

Jews often describe God as omnipotent, and see that idea as rooted in the Hebrew Bible. Some modern Jewish theologians have argued that God is not omnipotent, however, and have found many biblical and classical sources to support this view.
God in Judaism - Wikipedia

 

[1213]

...The best way I’ve ever heard it stated is there are three things people want to believe when they believe in God: God is good, God is all knowing, and God is all powerful. But if all three of these things are true, then how can child rapists (and a myriad of other ills in this world) exist?

The answer is, God cannot be all three at once....

I disagree with that, especially because there is no good reason to believe so.

But, does OT say that God is all powerful,

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram, and said to him, "I am God Almighty. Walk before me, and be blameless.
Gen 17:1

Almighty means most powerful. Not necessary all powerful. It seems to be more NT idea that God is all powerful, because He could give it to Jesus.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:18

And if we believe the book of Job, God is perfect in knowledge, which I think means He is all knowing.

Do you know the workings of the clouds, The wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge?
Job 37:16

Because of those I believe God is all knowing and also all powerful.

 

[firedragon]

At least protect children, the innocent. The just of the article anyway.

I'm really more interested in what the Torah says about it. The author of the article was Jewish. I guess this doesn't mean she is a scholar but her view is that God need not be all-powerful.
What does the Torah support?

I see lots of arguments for an all-powerful God but are we interpreting the Torah out of a need to support our belief that God is all-powerful.

Jews often describe God as omnipotent, and see that idea as rooted in the Hebrew Bible. Some modern Jewish theologians have argued that God is not omnipotent, however, and have found many biblical and classical sources to support this view.
God in Judaism - Wikipedia

Well. Thats a sound question I suppose.

The Torah also has different views in my opinion. Jews won't agree with me, but scholarship like of Wellhausen and the academic progeny theorises that there were at least four different schools of thought went into the 5 books we call the Torah. And it seems that all four schools of thought have at least a tad bit of difference in the projection of God.

Thus I don't think you should look at the Torah as one author, one book, one philosophy.

Just the "creation" part of the universe or the earth itself makes God all powerful, but him riding on a cherub makes him "not so".

If you wish to read up further on this, read form criticism.

Peace.

 

[Deeje]

Oh dear.....here we have a litany of misinterpretation IMV. This is what happens when you are a church of one who takes it upon themselves to put forward their own ideas about what scripture means. I believe that the self-taught have a fool for an educator. God has always provided his worshippers with guides concerning the interpretation and application of scripture.....never has he revealed his truth to just one person.

Who else believes what you do? “Scripture” does not identify you as a "Christian". So are you? With whom do you share worship? (Hebrews 10:24-25) You cannot be a church of one.

Maybe you need to catch up on the JW literature. It recognizes that the death Adam brought into the world by his sin comes about through disease.

Maybe you need to catch up on what we believe....?
It is apparent from scripture that with sin, comes a separation from God. A separation that is only bridged by the appointment of God’s son as 'Mediator between God and men', ensuring that a line of communication with God remains open, despite our sinful condition.

It also indicates that sin was not in the world before Adam committed it. Ageing, disease and death came as a result of sin. Death did not occur immediately, because God allowed the now imperfect humans to complete his mandate to “fill the earth”.

He would give the humans his guidance and those who sought to please God would have his blessing because they do not allow their sinful condition to dictate or dominate their thinking or actions, as James warned about. (James 1:14-15)

If sin had not entered the world through Adam’s disobedience, no one would have lost their life or have experienced the pain and suffering that humans have faced throughout history at the hands of godless ones intent on exercising power over others. As soon as humans have power over others, it corrupts them....always

In other words, Adam sinned in a different way than the rest of his kind. And Adam's nature was different before he sinned.

Please provide Scripture that teaches what you do. Where does it tell us Adam's flesh and blood nature became something different after he sinned?

If you can read the scripture you claim to understand, then please ask yourself what Adam and his wife lost due to their disobedience? Their whole lives changed...their environment became hostile....the very ground where they now had to grow their own food, was cursed.....they would bring forth children in pain and suffering hardship even trying to feed them. They were vegetarians who had to subsist on the meager yield of what they could grow. The ageing process now set in and with it came sinful actions out of a now sinful nature.....so powerful was this sinfulness, that a murderer was produced within one generation.

let me help you. It doesn't. In fact, it says the opposite of what you say.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You clearly have no idea whom it was that Paul was addressing. He is speaking of those he mentioned in Hebrews 3:1....those he addressed as having “the heavenly calling”. This is not the majority of Christians who are living at this “time of the end”. All of the first Christians were of this “calling” and it was to them that the Christian scriptures are primarily directed. These will be “kings and priests” who will rule with Christ in heaven. (Revelation 20:6) Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to provide their services. Revelation 21:2-4 reveals that this rulership is extended to “mankind” here on earth. The majority of those who are resurrected will be the earthly subjects of the Kingdom. The majority alive at the "time of the end" would also be of this group, seen in Revelation 7:9-10, 13-14 as a "great multitude".

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

See above. The “first Adam” was a man of flesh and an equivalent man of flesh (“the last Adam) offered his life to pay the debt that Adam left for his children. Only an equivalent life could cancel the debt. Jesus came from heaven as a perfect man to rescue those burdened by Adam's sin, but Adam himself was not forgivable. He will never live again because he was perfect like Jesus, and could have remained perfectly obedient as Jesus did under temptation.
Without the devil providing that temptation, there would have been none to contend with.

Can you comprehend that? What does Paul say about Adam? He says the opposite of what you say and what your sect teaches..

Adam was made of the dust of the ground and is therefore called THE NATURAL MAN. And as is the earthy(Adam) so too are the rest.
And it is precisely that earthy nature made from dust which is sinful and therefore MUST be changed to a spiritual body like the heavenly body Jesus now has.

You misunderstand the whole story IMO. According to my studies of the scriptures over 50 years, what we had in the beginning was taken away from us by the actions of one man. (Romans 5:12, 18-19) But God stepped in with a remedy that was to play out over many centuries, testing mankind and allowing God to gather an exclusive people to whom he gave his laws, and about whom he recorded their actions, and his reactions to their conduct. This record became an important part of our history.....and the the details of God’s rescue mission became clearer.....a Savior would come from this people, but obedient ones in the whole world would eventually benefit from his sacrifice, as God promised Abraham. (Genesis 22:18) So, what we lost in the beginning is fully restored in the end. (Isaiah 55:11)

Why do you suppose God gave law to Adam? It is to show man his total inability to live up to the just demands of God's law and to recognize that he is in need of mercy.

Adam had one negative command.....just one. There was no long list of do’s and don’t’s.....because there was no need. The penalty alone should have been enough to curb any departure from that one command....but the devil planned his defection very carefully.....he could not have done anything without the humans falling for his deceptions....and lying about the penalty. Imagine what would have happened if the woman had simply told the serpent to 'get lost'?

There was a “tree of life” in the garden to which no prohibition was applied until after the pair were sentenced to expulsion from their paradise home. Only one tree was off limits....but that changed once the pair chose to act in a way that had lasting repercussions for all who would descend from them. Being denied access to the “tree of life” meant that there was nothing to prevent their eventual, ageing and death.

that's the same reason God gave His laws to the Jews. They were to recognize that the law was unforgiving and that if they were to be saved it would have to be by faith. Like the faith Abraham showed long before God gave the Israelites His laws at Mount Sinai. was Abraham justified by the law? Of course not. Righteousness was imputed to him by faith and not by works of the law.

God gave his perfect law to an imperfect people for good reason. Paul said that the law was given to "makes sins manifest". (Galatians 3:18) IOW the law was a constant reminder of their need for a Savior, who would come in God’s due time and provide the ultimate sacrifice that would free Israel from the need to offer blood sacrifices for their sins perpetually. By rejecting their Messiah, the Jewish nation condemned themselves to the curse of the Law forever....a Law that they no longer keep as far as sacrifice goes. Not having a temple at which to offer their sacrifices, I believe should remind them that it was only as a punishment from God that it was ever destroyed in times past. They must wonder why it was never rebuilt over the last 2,000 years?

 

[LightofTruth]

Oh dear.....here we have a litany of misinterpretation IMV. This is what happens when you are a church of one who takes it upon themselves to put forward their own ideas about what scripture means. I believe that the self-taught have a fool for an educator. God has always provided his worshippers with guides concerning the interpretation and application of scripture.....never has he revealed his truth to just one person.

Who else believes what you do? “Scripture” does not identify you as a "Christian". So are you? With whom do you share worship? (Hebrews 10:24-25) You cannot be a church of one.



Maybe you need to catch up on what we believe....?
It is apparent from scripture that with sin, comes a separation from God. A separation that is only bridged by the appointment of God’s son as 'Mediator between God and men', ensuring that a line of communication with God remains open, despite our sinful condition.

It also indicates that sin was not in the world before Adam committed it. Ageing, disease and death came as a result of sin. Death did not occur immediately, because God allowed the now imperfect humans to complete his mandate to “fill the earth”.

He would give the humans his guidance and those who sought to please God would have his blessing because they do not allow their sinful condition to dictate or dominate their thinking or actions, as James warned about. (James 1:14-15)

If sin had not entered the world through Adam’s disobedience, no one would have lost their life or have experienced the pain and suffering that humans have faced throughout history at the hands of godless ones intent on exercising power over others. As soon as humans have power over others, it corrupts them....always



If you can read the scripture you claim to understand, then please ask yourself what Adam and his wife lost due to their disobedience? Their whole lives changed...their environment became hostile....the very ground where they now had to grow their own food, was cursed.....they would bring forth children in pain and suffering hardship even trying to feed them. They were vegetarians who had to subsist on the meager yield of what they could grow. The ageing process now set in and with it came sinful actions out of a now sinful nature.....so powerful was this sinfulness, that a murderer was produced within one generation.



You clearly have no idea whom it was that Paul was addressing. He is speaking of those he mentioned in Hebrews 3:1....those he addressed as having “the heavenly calling”. This is not the majority of Christians who are living at this “time of the end”. All of the first Christians were of this “calling” and it was to them that the Christian scriptures are primarily directed. These will be “kings and priests” who will rule with Christ in heaven. (Revelation 20:6) Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to provide their services. Revelation 21:2-4 reveals that this rulership is extended to “mankind” here on earth. The majority of those who are resurrected will be the earthly subjects of the Kingdom. The majority alive at the "time of the end" would also be of this group, seen in Revelation 7:9-10, 13-14 as a "great multitude".



See above. The “first Adam” was a man of flesh and an equivalent man of flesh (“the last Adam) offered his life to pay the debt that Adam left for his children. Only an equivalent life could cancel the debt. Jesus came from heaven as a perfect man to rescue those burdened by Adam's sin, but Adam himself was not forgivable. He will never live again because he was perfect like Jesus, and could have remained perfectly obedient as Jesus did under temptation.
Without the devil providing that temptation, there would have been none to contend with.



You misunderstand the whole story IMO. According to my studies of the scriptures over 50 years, what we had in the beginning was taken away from us by the actions of one man. (Romans 5:12, 18-19) But God stepped in with a remedy that was to play out over many centuries, testing mankind and allowing God to gather an exclusive people to whom he gave his laws, and about whom he recorded their actions, and his reactions to their conduct. This record became an important part of our history.....and the the details of God’s rescue mission became clearer.....a Savior would come from this people, but obedient ones in the whole world would eventually benefit from his sacrifice, as God promised Abraham. (Genesis 22:18) So, what we lost in the beginning is fully restored in the end. (Isaiah 55:11)



Adam had one negative command.....just one. There was no long list of do’s and don’t’s.....because there was no need. The penalty alone should have been enough to curb any departure from that one command....but the devil planned his defection very carefully.....he could not have done anything without the humans falling for his deceptions....and lying about the penalty. Imagine what would have happened if the woman had simply told the serpent to 'get lost'?

There was a “tree of life” in the garden to which no prohibition was applied until after the pair were sentenced to expulsion from their paradise home. Only one tree was off limits....but that changed once the pair chose to act in a way that had lasting repercussions for all who would descend from them. Being denied access to the “tree of life” meant that there was nothing to prevent their eventual, ageing and death.



God gave his perfect law to an imperfect people for good reason. Paul said that the law was given to "makes sins manifest". (Galatians 3:18) IOW the law was a constant reminder of their need for a Savior, who would come in God’s due time and provide the ultimate sacrifice that would free Israel from the need to offer blood sacrifices for their sins perpetually. By rejecting their Messiah, the Jewish nation condemned themselves to the curse of the Law forever....a Law that they no longer keep as far as sacrifice goes. Not having a temple at which to offer their sacrifices, I believe should remind them that it was only as a punishment from God that it was ever destroyed in times past. They must wonder why it was never rebuilt over the last 2,000 years?

Your problem is that you can't or simply refuse to address my post. Instead you become a preacher and a parrot for the JW.

For example:

You suggested that Adam did not have a nature prone to sin. And that after Adam sinned, man now has a nature prone to sin. In other words, man's very nature had been changed so you suggest. Please show the Scripture which teaches that.

My reply was:
"In other words, Adam sinned in a different way than the rest of his kind. And Adam's nature was different before he sinned.".

I continued by showing that Paul disagrees with you by telling us that Adam was the natural man and he says that the natural man must take on a spiritual body which comes by resurrection from the dead. The spiritual body, Paul says, is like the body Jesus was raised with. That body never dies. Paul says death no longer has dominion over him.

But you NEVER address any of that. Instead you completely avoided it and went on babbling about those who have a "heavenly calling".

You are obviously incapable of having an intelligent discussion whereby you might directly address my comments in a intelligent and Biblical manner.

good day.

 

[Deeje]

You are obviously incapable of having an intelligent discussion whereby you might directly address my comments in a intelligent and Biblical manner.

IOW..."I don't agree with you so I must be wrong....it could not possibly be you even though you are the only one who reads scripture this way".....I sincerely hope you see the real 'light of truth' one day, because I believe that your light is actually darkness. (Matthew 6:22-23) You cannot be a 'lone ranger'.....because the truth is not only apparent to one person. It has to be shared by a brotherhood who all believe as you do....which you do not seem to have. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

I have addressed you posts in a very biblical manner. It's not my fault that you cannot see past your own interpretation. I have given you scripture to show you why your interpretation is flawed. You don't see it, but that's OK.....you are entitled to your view.....right or wrong. We will all see soon enough I think.

Good day indeed.

 

[LightofTruth]

IOW..."I don't agree with you so I must be wrong....it could not possibly be you even though you are the only one who reads scripture this way".....I sincerely hope you see the real 'light of truth' one day, because I believe that your light is actually darkness. (Matthew 6:22-23) You cannot be a 'lone ranger'.....because the truth is not only apparent to one person. It has to be shared by a brotherhood who all believe as you do....which you do not seem to have. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

I have addressed you posts in a very biblical manner. It's not my fault that you cannot see past your own interpretation. I have given you scripture to show you why your interpretation is flawed. You don't see it, but that's OK.....you are entitled to your view.....right or wrong. We will all see soon enough I think.

Good day indeed.

Just some friendly advise. Why don't you try having a simple discussion where you can actually reply to actual comments rather than avoid discussion and preach unrelated JW doctrine instead.

I would have liked for you to reply to the comments I made which were addressing the actual comments you made. Who knows, it might have turned into an adult discussion.