Is the GOD of Qur’an an evolutionist?

[Ruh]

As-salāmu ʿalaykum, brother.

Having a great time examining your opening posts, and framing a reply. You raise intriguing - thought provoking - points. Forgive me if it takes a while for me to come back. ʾIn šāʾ -llāh, this will not take too long.

W/Salam Ya Akhi . I am grateful for your kind words .

 

[Ruh]

So do you believe that humans and apes share a common ancestor?

Chimpanzee–human last common ancestor - Wikipedia
Fossil Reveals What Last Common Ancestor of Humans and Apes Looked Liked
Evidence of a chimpanzee-sized ancestor of humans but a gibbon-sized ancestor of apes

 

[danieldemol]

Chimpanzee–human last common ancestor - Wikipedia
Fossil Reveals What Last Common Ancestor of Humans and Apes Looked Liked
Evidence of a chimpanzee-sized ancestor of humans but a gibbon-sized ancestor of apes

Thanks for your reply, but I was specifically asking @paarsurrey , because he referred to the alislam.org (ie Ahamadi website’s) use of the term “progressive creation” as opposed to evolution.

FYI in Ahmadiyya Islam their leader whom they term kaliph has put out a video which you can see here:

In it he opposes speciation of humans from a common ancestor saying, "Why have the monkeys stayed as monkeys?"

So perhaps you can see why I put the question to Paarsurrey, to see whether he is just half informing you in an attempt to gain a convert, or whether he is posting his personal views in opposition to the Ahmadi Kaliph or what?

 

[Milton Platt]

Evolution in Qur’an

I know it sounds bizarre , specially to my fellow Muslims who cultivate evolution is odd to the fundamental beliefs of Islam but I don’t get it , HOW ? As an honest reader of Qur’an, I see clearly that the Author of the Qur’an nurtured and propagated the theory of evolution. I will be still standing for the correction if someone can show me where and how evolution is against the doctrine of the Qur’an. Any of your compliments/complains are welcome (apart from taking me to the courtyard to behead my head).

A) First comes first, Did ever Qur’an mention that Adam is the first human in the earth ? Nowhere in Qur’an it was said so . The name Adam (آدم) was mentioned about 20 times in the whole book without citing that he was the first human. An expression related to Adam like ( Al-Insan Al-Awal/الإنسان الأول) may have nailed the whole issue but such expression is absent in Qur’an .

B) Now let us don these simple verses of Qur’an from chapter 56:

58- Do you see what you emit?

59- Is it you who create it or we the creators of it.

60- We have decreed among you the death and we are not to fail.

61- On that we change your forms/likenesses/shapes and produce you in what you do not know.

62- And certainly you knew the first creation so why not you take heed?

In the above set of verses ALLAH, the Almighty wants us to ponder upon our primitive way of creation and connected it to the change of our forms/shapes. Isn’t it the first pillar of evolution?

C) The following verse from chapter 6 is going to trigger also:

133-And your LORD is wealthy who is the Possessor of mercy. If HE wills HE can take you away and grant succession after you to whatever HE wills as HE evolved/raised you from the descendants of another/different tribe/species.

This verse straight away is saying that we have been changed or evolved from a group or species which was different from human. The Arabic word آخَرِينَ/Akhirin means a different kind/not of same kind. If human are the descendants of human then the veracity of this word is redundant. Therefore ‘Descendants of another tribe/ ذرية قوم اخرين/ thurriyyati qawmin akhareena’ must be other than human. Interestingly there is another word in the same verse which confirms the above to be correct. In Arabic language the relative pronoun’ ما/Ma’ is predominantly used to address other than human which is labeled in Arabic grammar as ‘Have no intelligence/ غَيْرُ عَقْل’ mainly hinting to the animal kingdom other than human . Though there are a lots of exceptions to that, for now we would stick only to its primal meaning and its applicability to the context of the verse. So what we got now from it - human are evolved from non-human species.

What species it could be? Is there any example for changing the forms of human body mention in the Qur’an? There have been two examples in Qur’an, I guess.


D) In verse 2:65, 5:60 and 7:166 the human transformation to apes is mentioned 3 times while 5:60 is talking about the pigs 1 time only. As I am not an expert in this science of evolution, the similarities of human and pig are farfetched for me to discuss (just heard that they have a lot of similarities and a common ancestor through primates ) . So, whatever the context is, the Author of the Qur’an at least shows pragmatism of transformation or evolution of forms between human and ape. The lexicons of Arabic language mentioned the word قرد/Qird to denote ape, monkey , baboon , chimpanzee in one basket , generally translates as ape . At least one candidate of evolution plausibly been found in Qur’an and that is ape.

Ruh

Rather than posting yet again about the inanity of such stuff....I will just say that my bull***t meter is going off.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thanks for your reply, but I was specifically asking @paarsurrey , because he referred to the alislam.org (ie Ahamadi website’s) use of the term “progressive creation” as opposed to evolution.

FYI in Ahmadiyya Islam their leader whom they term kaliph has put out a video which you can see here:

In it he opposes speciation of humans from a common ancestor saying, "Why have the monkeys stayed as monkeys?"

So perhaps you can see why I put the question to Paarsurrey, to see whether he is just half informing you in an attempt to gain a convert, or whether he is posting his personal views in opposition to the Ahmadi Kaliph or what?

"half informing"

Please keep on informing the other half, no harm in it.
Now tell us, why have the monkeys stayed as monkeys? Right, please?

Regards
_________
"Firstly, humans did not evolve from monkeys. Instead, monkeys and humans share a common ancestor from which both evolved around 25 million years ago.
This evolutionary relationship is supported both by the fossil record and DNA analysis. A 2007 study showed that humans and rhesus monkeys share about 93% of their DNA. Based on the similarities and differences between the two types of DNA, scientists have estimated that humans and rhesus monkeys diverged from their common ancestor 25 million years ago."
If evolution is real why are there still monkeys? › Ask an Expert (ABC Science)

 

[danieldemol]

"half informing"

Please keep on informing the other half, no harm in it.
Now tell us, why have the monkeys stayed as monkeys? Right, please?

Regards
_________
"Firstly, humans did not evolve from monkeys. Instead, monkeys and humans share a common ancestor from which both evolved around 25 million years ago.
This evolutionary relationship is supported both by the fossil record and DNA analysis. A 2007 study showed that humans and rhesus monkeys share about 93% of their DNA. Based on the similarities and differences between the two types of DNA, scientists have estimated that humans and rhesus monkeys diverged from their common ancestor 25 million years ago."
If evolution is real why are there still monkeys? › Ask an Expert (ABC Science)

I'll cut you a sweet deal, you answer my question on whether you believe humans and apes share a common ancestor or not and I'll answer your question on why there are monkeys.

 

[Ruh]

Rather than posting yet again about the inanity of such stuff....I will just say that my bull***t meter is going off.

Good for you mate

 

[Ruh]

Thanks for your reply, but I was specifically asking @paarsurrey , because he referred to the alislam.org (ie Ahamadi website’s) use of the term “progressive creation” as opposed to evolution.

FYI in Ahmadiyya Islam their leader whom they term kaliph has put out a video which you can see here:

In it he opposes speciation of humans from a common ancestor saying, "Why have the monkeys stayed as monkeys?"

So perhaps you can see why I put the question to Paarsurrey, to see whether he is just half informing you in an attempt to gain a convert, or whether he is posting his personal views in opposition to the Ahmadi Kaliph or what?

Seems like Imam was having a phagophobia in front of a question from a grade 8 student . Finally he decided to run away hastily before more questions might come from the educated ones and told his audience to look for more infos pertaining evolution in the internet . However here is the experts' opinions about it :

Why Haven't All Primates Evolved into Humans? | Live Science

 

[danieldemol]

Seems like Imam was having a phagophobia in front of a question from a grade 8 student . Finally he decided to run away hastily before more questions might come from the educated ones and told his audience to look for more infos pertaining evolution in the internet . However here is the experts' opinions about it :

Why Haven't All Primates Evolved into Humans? | Live Science

You seem to have a keen interest on answering for other people, but this only tells us what you think they think. Not what they really think.

I can post you a transcript of a no longer available video in which the imam referred to here denies (Darwinian) evolution, or I can post you explicit statements from the official alislam website which unequivocally deny that man had a common ancestor with apes.

But you seem intent on imagining what the answers of others are instead of finding out what they really are. Why are you so afraid of finding out what others really think?

 

[Ruh]

You seem to have a keen interest on answering for other people, but this only tells us what you think they think. Not what they really think.

I can post you a transcript of a no longer available video in which the imam referred to here denies (Darwinian) evolution, or I can post you explicit statements from the official alislam website which unequivocally deny that man had a common ancestor with apes.

But you seem intent on imagining what the answers of others are instead of finding out what they really are. Why are you so afraid of finding out what others really think?

Was it uncalled ? The vdo posted to reply me by you .

 

[danieldemol]

Was it uncalled ? The vdo posted to reply me by you .

I’m sorry I don’t understand your question, was what uncalled?

 

[Native]

I know it sounds bizarre , specially to my fellow Muslims who cultivate evolution is odd to the fundamental beliefs of Islam but I don’t get it , HOW ? As an honest reader of Qur’an, I see clearly that the Author of the Qur’an nurtured and propagated the theory of evolution. I will be still standing for the correction if someone can show me where and how evolution is against the doctrine of the Qur’an. Any of your compliments/complains are welcome (apart from taking me to the courtyard to behead my head).

Thanks for this post I´ve otherwise decided not to participate in this OP, but you certainly triggers some of my own religious/mythical/cosmological perceptions.

About the Creation Story:
If thinking of our ancestors perception of their ancient world, it cloud at the most concern the Milky Way and of course the Solar System. If so, we have to focus on the specifics about the Milky Way; it´s central Light and its white contours encircling the Earth up in the Sky and how it looks on the Earth´s two hemispheres.

From my studies of Comparative Mythology and Religion with the focus on the numerous cultural Stories of Creation, I´ll conclude and generally describe this as taking place via chaotic cosmic "rivers" of gas and dust which comes together in a swirling motion which creates LIGHT. This light again creates the first firm entities of soil or clay.

61- On that we change your forms/likenesses/shapes and produce you in what you do not know.

If taking the central galactic LIGHT as the "former of shape" this LIGHT also forms the galactic contours. The Egyptian culture has the galactic forms in the southern hemisphere to be resembled by the Goddess Hathor, "mother of everything" which concurs with "Eve the Mother of everything". This fits very well to your:

Qur’an confirms we are from a single female ancestor

Let us look into 2 verses from the Qur’an:

4:1 O Mankind ! Fear your LORD who created you from a single being (female) and created from her mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women…

Except not with "created from her mate" but created from the LIGHT as you state here:

7:189 HE is the one who created you from a single being (female) and made from her, her mate …

----

If Adam would be the first human, he had to be an unintelligent person. But Qur’an depicted Adam in a different way. As mentioned earlier in nowhere Qur’an we can find that Adam was the first man, hence we are pretty safe not to contradict any core tenet of Islam, as long as Qur’an is concerned.

Here are few points about Adam from Qur’an:

1- Adam was created in Jannah /paradise not in this earth (2:35). In that sense he was an alien to this earth.

2- Adam was created from clay/dust (3:59) while all other living creatures on this earth were created from water (24:45) .

Both Eve and Adam were not human beings but cosmic symbols of the creation itself in which we all are made. Eve on the southern hemisphere and Adam on the northern hemisphere, both created from "gaseous waters and clay" showing the galactic contours.

3- When ALLAH, the Almighty wanted to send Adam to the earth the angels argued by saying –

Adam is the cosmic celestial image for the male humans on the Earth, hence why:

Then why we are called ‘The children of Adam’ (بَنِي آدَمَ) ?

-----------

The above verse is quite clear – the human race originated from Adam stood way-out than the other human race existed that time. Again the relative pronoun used in this verse من /whom is reserve for human only. That doubly confirms that when children of Adam spread around the world, there were also some human race existed who were backward compared to them in the intelligence.
Ruh.

If taking my explanation about Eve & Adam as symbols for the galactic contours on both hemispheres for granted, it is logical to say humans origine from these, but IMO this cannot be taken as a historic evidence for the evolution of the human race as the creation of the Solar System is measured to have taken place approximately about 4.6 bill. years ago.

This furthermore underlines my interpretation and perception of the Eve and Adam galactic symbolism and explanation.

Well, I don´t know if this reply provides any "lights to be turned on" - but if not then just ask into anything you like.

Regards
Native

BTW: Here´s some links from my personal website to study:
Milky Way Myths from all over the World.
Ancient symbols of the Milky Way Centre.
The great Mother Goddess
The Greatest God in Heaven

 

[Ruh]

Thanks for this post I´ve otherwise decided not to participate in this OP, but you certainly triggers some of my own religious/mythical/cosmological perceptions.

About the Creation Story:
If thinking of our ancestors perception of their ancient world, it cloud at the most concern the Milky Way and of course the Solar System. If so, we have to focus on the specifics about the Milky Way; it´s central Light and its white contours encircling the Earth up in the Sky and how it looks on the Earth´s two hemispheres.

From my studies of Comparative Mythology and Religion with the focus on the numerous cultural Stories of Creation, I´ll conclude and generally describe this as taking place via chaotic cosmic "rivers" of gas and dust which comes together in a swirling motion which creates LIGHT. This light again creates the first firm entities of soil or clay.

If taking the central galactic LIGHT as the "former of shape" this LIGHT also forms the galactic contours. The Egyptian culture has the galactic forms in the southern hemisphere to be resembled by the Goddess Hathor, "mother of everything" which concurs with "Eve the Mother of everything". This fits very well to your:

Except not with "created from her mate" but created from the LIGHT as you state here:

----

Both Eve and Adam were not human beings but cosmic symbols of the creation itself in which we all are made. Eve on the southern hemisphere and Adam on the northern hemisphere, both created from "gaseous waters and clay" showing the galactic contours.

Adam is the cosmic celestial image for the male humans on the Earth, hence why:

-----------

If taking my explanation about Eve & Adam as symbols for the galactic contours on both hemispheres for granted, it is logical to say humans origine from these, but IMO this cannot be taken as a historic evidence for the evolution of the human race as the creation of the Solar System is measured to have taken place approximately about 4.6 bill. years ago.

This furthermore underlines my interpretation and perception of the Eve and Adam galactic symbolism and explanation.

Well, I don´t know if this reply provides any "lights to be turned on" - but if not then just ask into anything you like.

Regards
Native

I like your insight whether it was historic or not . There must be a common link somewhere somehow .

 

[Native]

I like your insight whether it was historic or not . There must be a common link somewhere somehow .

Sure there is. Just read my profile signature People from all over the world have observed and sensed the very similar conditions on the Earth and in the Sky at day- and night time, and one can find the very similar deities and descriptions of Creation Stories in every culture be studying Comparative Mythology and Religion.
There is NO "My God or a special cultural God" but lots of gendered deities who really are the same all over the world and they stands for all the same - which even can be understood scientifically if you interpret "deities" as "forces of creation".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Evolution in Qur’an

I know it sounds bizarre , specially to my fellow Muslims who cultivate evolution is odd to the fundamental beliefs of Islam but I don’t get it , HOW ? As an honest reader of Qur’an, I see clearly that the Author of the Qur’an nurtured and propagated the theory of evolution. I will be still standing for the correction if someone can show me where and how evolution is against the doctrine of the Qur’an. Any of your compliments/complains are welcome (apart from taking me to the courtyard to behead my head).

A) First comes first, Did ever Qur’an mention that Adam is the first human in the earth ? Nowhere in Qur’an it was said so . The name Adam (آدم) was mentioned about 20 times in the whole book without citing that he was the first human. An expression related to Adam like ( Al-Insan Al-Awal/الإنسان الأول) may have nailed the whole issue but such expression is absent in Qur’an .

B) Now let us don these simple verses of Qur’an from chapter 56:

58- Do you see what you emit?

59- Is it you who create it or we the creators of it.

60- We have decreed among you the death and we are not to fail.

61- On that we change your forms/likenesses/shapes and produce you in what you do not know.

62- And certainly you knew the first creation so why not you take heed?

In the above set of verses ALLAH, the Almighty wants us to ponder upon our primitive way of creation and connected it to the change of our forms/shapes. Isn’t it the first pillar of evolution?

C) The following verse from chapter 6 is going to trigger also:

133-And your LORD is wealthy who is the Possessor of mercy. If HE wills HE can take you away and grant succession after you to whatever HE wills as HE evolved/raised you from the descendants of another/different tribe/species.

This verse straight away is saying that we have been changed or evolved from a group or species which was different from human. The Arabic word آخَرِينَ/Akhirin means a different kind/not of same kind. If human are the descendants of human then the veracity of this word is redundant. Therefore ‘Descendants of another tribe/ ذرية قوم اخرين/ thurriyyati qawmin akhareena’ must be other than human. Interestingly there is another word in the same verse which confirms the above to be correct. In Arabic language the relative pronoun’ ما/Ma’ is predominantly used to address other than human which is labeled in Arabic grammar as ‘Have no intelligence/ غَيْرُ عَقْل’ mainly hinting to the animal kingdom other than human . Though there are a lots of exceptions to that, for now we would stick only to its primal meaning and its applicability to the context of the verse. So what we got now from it - human are evolved from non-human species.

What species it could be? Is there any example for changing the forms of human body mention in the Qur’an? There have been two examples in Qur’an, I guess.


D) In verse 2:65, 5:60 and 7:166 the human transformation to apes is mentioned 3 times while 5:60 is talking about the pigs 1 time only. As I am not an expert in this science of evolution, the similarities of human and pig are farfetched for me to discuss (just heard that they have a lot of similarities and a common ancestor through primates ) . So, whatever the context is, the Author of the Qur’an at least shows pragmatism of transformation or evolution of forms between human and ape. The lexicons of Arabic language mentioned the word قرد/Qird to denote ape, monkey , baboon , chimpanzee in one basket , generally translates as ape . At least one candidate of evolution plausibly been found in Qur’an and that is ape.

Ruh

If you can find a way to read modern science into your religious stories, eventhough nobody ever read those stories like that before science came up with the discoveries, then all the more power to you.

But just as with the big bang thread, I remain unimpressed that you succeed in post hoc re-interpretation.

 

[Ruh]

Sure there is. Just read my profile signature People from all over the world have observed and sensed the very similar conditions on the Earth and in the Sky at day- and night time, and one can find the very similar deities and descriptions of Creation Stories in every culture be studying Comparative Mythology and Religion.
There is NO "My God or a special cultural God" but lots of gendered deities who really are the same all over the world and they stands for all the same - which even can be understood scientifically if you interpret "deities" as "forces of creation".

Hmm , interesting .

 

[Ruh]

If you can find a way to read modern science into your religious stories, eventhough nobody ever read those stories like that before science came up with the discoveries, then all the more power to you.

But just as with the big bang thread, I remain unimpressed that you succeed in post hoc re-interpretation.

Dear T.Monster , the Qur'an is just in front of you . Pick those verses and show me where did I go wrong . Be specific and precise to your point instead criticize me vaguely every time , does not prove me wrong , does it?

 

[Shad]

Evolution in Qur’an

I know it sounds bizarre , specially to my fellow Muslims who cultivate evolution is odd to the fundamental beliefs of Islam but I don’t get it , HOW ? As an honest reader of Qur’an, I see clearly that the Author of the Qur’an nurtured and propagated the theory of evolution. I will be still standing for the correction if someone can show me where and how evolution is against the doctrine of the Qur’an. Any of your compliments/complains are welcome (apart from taking me to the courtyard to behead my head).

A) First comes first, Did ever Qur’an mention that Adam is the first human in the earth ? Nowhere in Qur’an it was said so . The name Adam (آدم) was mentioned about 20 times in the whole book without citing that he was the first human. An expression related to Adam like ( Al-Insan Al-Awal/الإنسان الأول) may have nailed the whole issue but such expression is absent in Qur’an .

B) Now let us don these simple verses of Qur’an from chapter 56:

58- Do you see what you emit?

59- Is it you who create it or we the creators of it.

60- We have decreed among you the death and we are not to fail.

61- On that we change your forms/likenesses/shapes and produce you in what you do not know.

62- And certainly you knew the first creation so why not you take heed?

In the above set of verses ALLAH, the Almighty wants us to ponder upon our primitive way of creation and connected it to the change of our forms/shapes. Isn’t it the first pillar of evolution?

None of that is about evolution.

C) The following verse from chapter 6 is going to trigger also:

133-And your LORD is wealthy who is the Possessor of mercy. If HE wills HE can take you away and grant succession after you to whatever HE wills as HE evolved/raised you from the descendants of another/different tribe/species.

This verse straight away is saying that we have been changed or evolved from a group or species which was different from human. The Arabic word آخَرِينَ/Akhirin means a different kind/not of same kind. If human are the descendants of human then the veracity of this word is redundant. Therefore ‘Descendants of another tribe/ ذرية قوم اخرين/ thurriyyati qawmin akhareena’ must be other than human. Interestingly there is another word in the same verse which confirms the above to be correct. In Arabic language the relative pronoun’ ما/Ma’ is predominantly used to address other than human which is labeled in Arabic grammar as ‘Have no intelligence/ غَيْرُ عَقْل’ mainly hinting to the animal kingdom other than human . Though there are a lots of exceptions to that, for now we would stick only to its primal meaning and its applicability to the context of the verse. So what we got now from it - human are evolved from non-human species.

The verse says produced/raised not evolved.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

D) In verse 2:65, 5:60 and 7:166 the human transformation to apes is mentioned 3 times while 5:60 is talking about the pigs 1 time only.

As I am not an expert in this science of evolution, the similarities of human and pig are farfetched for me to discuss (just heard that they have a lot of similarities and a common ancestor through primates ) . So, whatever the context is, the Author of the Qur’an at least shows pragmatism of transformation or evolution of forms between human and ape. The lexicons of Arabic language mentioned the word قرد/Qird to denote ape, monkey , baboon , chimpanzee in one basket , generally translates as ape . At least one candidate of evolution plausibly been found in Qur’an and that is ape.

[/quote]

Ergo since we didn't evolve from pigs said transformation isn't about evolution. More so it is turning humans into those not the other way around



Again reading what you want into it.

 

[ManSinha]

but lots of gendered deities who really are the same all over the world and they stands for all the same - which even can be understood scientifically if you interpret "deities" as "forces of creation".

That is an interesting perspective - apologies to OP for the tangent - the Vedas regard the elements as deities to be worshipped and thanked
Agni - Fire - gets pride of place
Varuna - Wind
Indra - Rain

and so forth .......

 

[Ruh]

The verse says produced/raised not evolved.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Well to raise or to grow are the synonyms of to evolve . Hence there is not mistake there if somebody translates it as evolve . Also one of meanings of أَنشَأَ as used in the verse is 'to evolve' . Other dictionaries says it means to elevate/rise from one position to another position which is the precise definition of evolution . Please see below for your ease of understanding :

Hans Wehr 4th ed., page 1131

Dictionary of the Holy Quran, page 563

Ergo since we didn't evolve from pigs said transformation isn't about evolution. More so it is turning humans into those not the other way around Again reading what you want into it.

Well apes and pigs are very similar than any other mammals in many ways with human . We share so many commons featurs physically and DNA wise that astonish scientists . Leaving the apes aside as that is no question about arguments , pigs are used successfully for human body parts transplant in large . Again human and pigs share a common ancestors through primates - science has proved . So the reverse evolution from human to apes/pig may feel impractical now but with the more advances genetic engineering knowledge it may be possible in future . The ample proofs of tremendous similarities between us and them can make it possible , not at least can make it a matter of mocking .

The similarities between humans and pigs
Pigs and humans share more genetic similarities than previously believed
Human-Pig Hybrid Created in the Lab—Here Are the Facts
In human medical applications
Domestic pig - Wikipedia
Pigs: The Missing Evolutionary Human Link - Evolution gene editing 3D bioprinting
Pigs help scientists understand human brain: Imaging analysis demonstrates swine models even more effective for neurological research
https://phys.org/news/2015-09-hidden-evolutionary-relationship-pigs-primates.html
Georgia geneticist challenges evolution, links humans to pigs