Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 'Christian'.

[Muffled]

I don't think one can, that's the point. It's a social identity, I don't think any Christian has the right to tell someone else they're not Christian when they understand themselves to be so.

People can insist until they're blue in the face that Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter-day Saints aren't Christian, it doesn't change the fact they are living their own form of Christianity just as a Catholic, an Eastern Orthodox-er and a Baptist are.

I don't believe that is what God considers Christianity ie that one can pick and choose which commandments to obey and chuck the others. Do you think God lets people off the hook because they only steal but keep all the other commandments?

 

[Katzpur]

Those are not moral laws, they are common sense laws. By your self a jacket made of wool and linen. Then when it gets dirty put it in the washing machine to clean it. The common sense of that requirement will suddenly dawn on you. Remember, they did not have dry cleaning in those days. They are like telling your kids not to touch a hot stove.

They were laws. The Bible makes no distinction between moral laws and "common sense laws." If they were "common sense laws" (whatever those might be), they would be recognized as such by today's Orthodox Jews, to whom they were initially given and who still adhere to them. Our ability to dry clean clothes today is irrelevant.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe I never read anywhere that Jesus founded the Church of LDS.It was John Smith who founded it. Whether he was led by Jesus or his own desires is debatable.

Uh... that would be "Joseph Smith," Muffled. And regardless of what anyone else may say, Mormons claim that Joseph founded the Church under the direct guidance and authority of Jesus Christ -- who is the only individual who has ever had the right to establish a church bearing His name.

 

[Katzpur]

I'll leave a practising Mormon to counter this claim as I don't have anything to hand that would let me readily dispute it. I'll assume it's true for the sake of argument - don't other 'mainstream' Churches like the Roman Catholic Church teach the same thing i.e. subservience to Church doctrines?

Mormonism teaches, of course, that the Church's leadership tells us to obey God's commandments, as found in the scriptures, so I'm not really sure where the argument lies.

So the Bible supports both positions.

Yes, it absolutely does, and Mormons consider both positions to be accurate when understood correctly.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe that is what God considers Christianity ie that one can pick and choose which commandments to obey and chuck the others. Do you think God lets people off the hook because they only steal but keep all the other commandments?

Is that honestly what you believe Kirran was suggesting?

 

[Kirran]

Mormonism teaches, of course, that the Church's leadership tells us to obey God's commandments, as found in the scriptures, so I'm not really sure where the argument lies.

Hey, hey, the C of JC of LDS teaches this! There are other Mormons, and other Latter-day Saints too.

 

[buddhist]

I believe I never read anywhere that Jesus founded the Church of LDS.It was John Smith who founded it. Whether he was led by Jesus or his own desires is debatable.

Sure, and with that same argument, we could also say James the elder founded the messianic Essene Church, Constantine founded the Church of Rome, Thomas founded the Indian Churches, and Luther founded the Protestant Churches. Whether they were led by Jesus or their own desires are debatable.

 

[Katzpur]

That is only partially true.

Acts 11:26 "And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."


However, the Book of Mormon claims people were known by this title as early as 73 B.C.

Alma 46:15 "...yea, all those who were true believes in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come."

The Bible teaches the Holy Spirit first came at Pentecost.
Luke 24:49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father unto you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Yet the Book of Mormon claims that people received the gift of the Holy Ghost as early as 545 B.C.

1. 
   2 Nephi 31:12-13 "...the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me... Wherefore, my beloved brethren,... by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost;..."
   
   
   
2. In the Old Testament the only ones who could be priests were the descendants of Levi, one of the twelve sons of Israel.
   Numbers 3:9-10 "And thou shalt give the Levites unto Aaron and to his sons: they are wholly given unto him out of the children of Israel. And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death" (See also Numbers 8:6-26).
   
   However, the Book of Mormon story claims that descendants of the tribe of Manasseh (Alma 10:3) were made priests.
   
   2 Nephi 5:26 "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did consecrate Jacob and Joseph, that they should be priests and teachers over the land of my people."
   The Book of Mormon contradicts Itself and other inspired Mormon writings!

God word is unchangeable---"Alma 41:8 God's word can change D 56:4-5
One God---2 Nephi 2:14 Plural gods, Book of Abraham, chap 4-5

There are many more but you will not believe these so posting any more would be a waste of time.

It certainly would be, but it was a waste of your time posting these. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are accounts of two different groups of people living on continents on other sides of the world from each other. I'll address just one of these silly claims, to illustrate how flawed your logic is. The Bible says Christ's disciples were first called "Christians" in Antioch, and the Book of Mormon supposedly "contradicts" this statement. Good grief, man! How on earth would you expect the writers of the Bible to know anything about what was going on nearly ten thousand miles away from them? These two volumes were written independently of each other. Both of them are, at least in part, histories. The details can't be expected to be the same.

 

[metis]

Oh yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you! I was just making another point of divergence. Oriental Orthodoxy is Miaphysite, rather than Chalcedonian.

Ah, thanks for the clarification, and I didn't realize there was a difference in their theology in that area.

 

[Kirran]

Ah, thanks for the clarification, and I didn't realize there was a difference in their theology in that area.

Oh yeah! The Oriental Orthodox Churches split from the Church that was to become the Eastern Orthodox Church and Western Christianity because they felt the consensus of the Council of Chalcedon, which was that Christ was one being, in two natures, human and divine, was going too close to the Nestorian idea that Christ was two beings, human and divine (the Church of the East derives from a prior split over that). So the Oriental Orthodox Church believes that Christ is one being with one nature, which is both human and divine. Miaphysite. Distinct from Monophysitism, which was something else again. Good stuff, eh?

 

[metis]

Good stuff, eh?

Amen.

No excuse, but my studies in Christian theology fell off around 20 years ago, so maybe I need to get back into it again as I'm finding out I'm forgetting stuff. But, since I'm 71, please cut me some slack, OK?

 

[Kirran]

Amen.

No excuse, but my studies in Christian theology fell off around 20 years ago, so maybe I need to get back into it again as I'm finding out I'm forgetting stuff. But, since I'm 71, please cut me some slack, OK?

I give everybody maximum slack when it comes to knowing the Christological basis to schisms in the medieval church.

 

[Kirran]

Amen.

No excuse, but my studies in Christian theology fell off around 20 years ago, so maybe I need to get back into it again as I'm finding out I'm forgetting stuff. But, since I'm 71, please cut me some slack, OK?

I'm getting quite elderly myself now. I'll be 22 within the month.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm getting quite elderly myself now. I'll be 22 within the month.

Seriously? Well, you can start calling Kirran "Grandpa" and me "Grandma."

 

[metis]

I'm getting quite elderly myself now. I'll be 22 within the month.

Then, relatively speaking, you're still in diapers!

 

[Kirran]

Seriously? Well, you can start calling Kirran "Grandpa" and me "Grandma."

I can start calling myself Grandpa? That would be a bit weird wouldn't it Katzpur?

 

[Muffled]

Is that honestly what you believe Kirran was suggesting?

I do not believe so but I believe it is the impact of what he is saying.

I believe I can judge whether a community is keeping the commandments of Jesus. For instance in the communion " do this in remembrance of me." So if that community actually thinks it is Christian while disobeying Jesus I believe their thinking is flawed.

 

[Katzpur]

I can start calling myself Grandpa? That would be a bit weird wouldn't it Katzpur?

Duh! I meant Metis! Senior moment. Sorry.

 

[Muffled]

Oh yeah! The Oriental Orthodox Churches split from the Church that was to become the Eastern Orthodox Church and Western Christianity because they felt the consensus of the Council of Chalcedon, which was that Christ was one being, in two natures, human and divine, was going too close to the Nestorian idea that Christ was two beings, human and divine (the Church of the East derives from a prior split over that). So the Oriental Orthodox Church believes that Christ is one being with one nature, which is both human and divine. Miaphysite. Distinct from Monophysitism, which was something else again. Good stuff, eh?

I beleive I like that. It is a lot of fun. IMHO both views are true. Christ is one being and two beings.

 

[Muffled]

Duh! I meant Metis! Senior moment. Sorry.

I believe I resemble that. You should see my typing this morning before I make corrections. The mind is just not working with the fingers or maybe the mind isn't quite getting it right.