Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 'Christian'.

[The Emperor of Mankind]

No, they don't believe in Jesus- at least not the one found in the Bible.

In what way do you believe the Jesus that Mormons believe in differ from the Jesus of the Bible?

And, they teach that obedience to the LDS church leaders is part of how they gain exaltation (salvation to Christians).

I'll leave a practising Mormon to counter this claim as I don't have anything to hand that would let me readily dispute it. I'll assume it's true for the sake of argument - don't other 'mainstream' Churches like the Roman Catholic Church teach the same thing i.e. subservience to Church doctrines?

Works are not part of salvation. Christians call it love, not works. Work implies someone owes you something for what you earned but love is what we do bc we want to serve and please God. And if leaders don't comply with the Bible then we are not to follow them. Jesus spoke of that, too.

But James 2:14-24 also says faith without works is dead - presumably meaning worthless, meaningless or pointless:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

So the Bible supports both positions.

 

[omega2xx]

Even more interesting that I did, in fact present examples.
Though it is possible that you replied BEFORE you seen them in post #181

Here they are:
How many animal sacrifices have you made this week?

Because the temple was destroyed and there are no rany priest who can trace ther linage back to Aaron, they cannot be offered any longer.

Also, Jesus fulfilled all of the sacrificial laws---But He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God---Heb 10:12.

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified---Heb 10:14

Do you wear cotton with polyester?

Those are not moral laws, they are common sense laws. By your self a jacket made of wool and linen. Then when it gets dirty put it in the washing machine to clean it. The common sense of that requirement will suddenly dawn on you. Remember, they did not have dry cleaning in those days. They are like telling your kids not to touch a hot stove.

 

[omega2xx]

The LDS church would cease to exist without these doctrines but not a single one of them is in the 'most correct book on earth' (BoM). How can that be? Here are those doctrines,


The Church organization
Melchizedek Priesthood
Aaronic Priesthood
Plurality of Gods
God is an exalted man
Men may become Gods
The 3 Degrees of Glory
Plurality of wives (Polygamy)
The 'Word of Wisdom'
Our 'Pre-existence'
Eternal Progression
A 'Heavenly Mother'
These are very sacred and major LDS doctrines/teachings. So, how can the Book of Mormon (BoM) be "The most correct book on earth" and "The fullness of the everlasting Gospel" when it doesn't have any of these doctrines in it?

Right. Much of their false teaching come from those the consider prophets. For example Talmage says God is not omnipresent, which the Bible clearly teaches He is. The strangest of their teaching I have found is McConkie says Joseph Smith aided Jesus in the creation. How can intelligent people believe such nonsense?

 

[Muffled]

My sole purpose in starting this Thread is to openly, honestly and in a civil manner discuss whether the LDS church fits the criteria of a Christian church. All of us have our own personal opinions about many issues, including religion and politics. But, how many of us know what the facts say?
My hope is we can discuss our opinions, the evidence, speculation and myths and learn as we have a civil, rational and reasonable debate. After all, isn't this why we have a Religious Debate Forum? To share what we think, feel, believe and know about Religion.
I would also like to add, if you have info that may be useful or applicable please post it so we all can enjoy or learn it (references and quotes are always helpful and encouraged).
Thanks! And, tell us all what you think.

I believe the concept of receiving the Holy Spirit was revived by the Mormons in 1830 while Pentecostalism didn't emerge until the late 1800s and the sinners prayer appears in the early 1900s. The problem is that sometimes people think they are hearing from the Holy Spirit when they are not so error ensues and more likely if the Bible isn't being adhered to.

So I believe my answer is that it is Christian in essence but variant in its teachings, although orthodoxy is a questionable attribute in Christianity

 

[Muffled]

Interesting quote by Timothy Beale:

Although all of them have their historical roots in Christian theology and tradition, and although most would identify themselves as Christian, many would not identify others within the larger category as Christian. Most Baptists and fundamentalists, for example, would not acknowledge Mormonism or Christian Science as Christian. In fact, the nearly 77 percent of Americans who self-identify as Christian are a diverse pluribus of Christianities that are far from any collective unity.

I believe I have attended both a Christian Science and Friends meeting and neither held communion. That seems to be about as much at variance with Christianity as one can get and Baptists consider Communion to be one of the two pillars of the faith, the other being believers baptism.

It appears that the LDS does practice communion calling it the sacrament. (Wikipedia)

 

[Kirran]

I believe I have attended both a Christian Science and Friends meeting and neither held communion. That seems to be about as much at variance with Christianity as one can get and Baptists consider Communion to be one of the two pillars of the faith, the other being believers baptism.

It appears that the LDS does practice communion calling it the sacrament. (Wikipedia)

Are you a Baptist, Muffled?

 

[Muffled]

Only the founder - allegedly Jesus - can properly say if it's truly "Christian". The rest of us can only offer our own personal opinions.

I believe I never read anywhere that Jesus founded the Church of LDS.It was John Smith who founded it. Whether he was led by Jesus or his own desires is debatable.

 

[Muffled]

Are you a Baptist, Muffled?

I believe I was raised in the American Baptist denomination so I tend to identify with the major tenets of the denomination. However Jesus has weaned me away from denominational worship to following Him more directly.

 

[Kirran]

I believe I was raised in the American Baptist denomination so I tend to identify with the major tenets of the denomination. However Jesus has weaned me away from denominational worship to following Him more directly.

Would it be fair to call you an Evangelical? A member of the charismatic movement?

 

[Muffled]

Not sure Jesus had any intention of the emergence of Christianity!

Mt 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

I believe that sounds to me like Jesus is establishing a new religion and church.

 

[Kirran]

Mt 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

I believe that sounds to me like Jesus is establishing a new religion and church.

I think that's us putting our current understandings of these terms on the original text, but these connotations hadn't yet emerged when Jesus spoke.

 

[Muffled]

Would it be fair to call you an Evangelical? A member of the charismatic movement?

I believe evangelism is a primary command for Christians.

I don't believe the movement has card carrying members but certainly I have participated and believe in both the fruit and gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Katzpur]

Right. Much of their false teaching come from those the consider prophets. For example Talmage says God is not omnipresent, which the Bible clearly teaches He is. The strangest of their teaching I have found is McConkie says Joseph Smith aided Jesus in the creation. How can intelligent people believe such nonsense?

Once again, you are simply unwilling to accept the fact that -- as four members of the Church have stated -- not everything every LDS leader has ever said is LDS doctrine. Our doctrine is contained in the Standard Works, which are The Holy Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. If an LDS leader makes a statement that cannot be supported by at least one of these books, then it is nothing more than that individual's opinion.

How can intelligent people, having been corrected dozens of times, continue to think they know more about what Mormons believe than Mormons do themselves? Why would they expect other people to continue to believe they know what they're talking about?

 

[metis]

That seems to be about as much at variance with Christianity as one can get and Baptists consider Communion to be one of the two pillars of the faith, the other being believers baptism.

But, you see, Baptists would be at "variance" with the Catholics, the Orthodox, and the Copts that believe that there are seven sacraments, not two ordinances.

 

[Kirran]

But, you see, Baptists would be at "variance" with the Catholics, the Orthodox, and the Copts that believe that there are seven sacraments, not two ordinances.

The Copts in particular would also disagree r.e. Christology!

 

[metis]

The Copts in particular would also disagree r.e. Christology!

Here: The Coptic Church - The Holy Sacraments | St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Center - St. Abraam Church, Woodbury, NY

From the above: The Church Sacraments are sacred actions by which the believers receive invisible graces, through material or visible signs. The Coptic Church observes seven sacraments:...

The seven are the same as found in the RCC and Orthodox churches.

 

[Katzpur]

In fact, the nearly 77 percent of Americans who self-identify as Christian are a diverse pluribus of Christianities that are far from any collective unity.

You are absolutely right about that. Christians are so diverse in their beliefs, and are so enthusiastic about labeling those who disagree with them on any point of doctrine as "not a Christian." It's sad, because it's precisely the opposite of what Jesus wanted in His followers.

The scriptures give us a good example of where the Apostle John was attempting to do what so many Christians today do. Interestingly, Jesus didn't commend him for doing so; rather, He corrected Him.

Luke 9:49-50 "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Mormons accept anyone who believes himself to be a Christian as being one. That doesn't mean we would necessarily agree with all of the doctrines of that individual's church, but we would never say, "You're not a Christian" to someone who claims to be. That, in our opinion, is a very "un-Christian" way of behaving.

 

[Katzpur]

Well hey, I'm no Mormon. But they were all very convinced that the experience they had had was genuine.

It was genuine, and though a number of them had a falling out with Joseph Smith over the years, none of them ever denied the experience they claimed to have in seeing the plates. I find that particularly compelling, since they would have had every reason to do otherwise.

 

[Kirran]

Here: The Coptic Church - The Holy Sacraments | St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Center - St. Abraam Church, Woodbury, NY

From the above: The Church Sacraments are sacred actions by which the believers receive invisible graces, through material or visible signs. The Coptic Church observes seven sacraments:...

The seven are the same as found in the RCC and Orthodox churches.

Oh yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you! I was just making another point of divergence. Oriental Orthodoxy is Miaphysite, rather than Chalcedonian.

You are absolutely right about that. Christians are so diverse in their beliefs, and are so enthusiastic about labeling those who disagree with them on any point of doctrine as "not a Christian." It's sad, because it's precisely the opposite of what Jesus wanted in His followers.

The scriptures give us a good example of where the Apostle John was attempting to do what so many Christians today do. Interestingly, Jesus didn't commend him for doing so; rather, He corrected Him.

Luke 9:49-50 "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Mormons accept anyone who believes himself to be a Christian as being one. That doesn't mean we would necessarily agree with all of the doctrines of that individual's church, but we would never say, "You're not a Christian" to someone who claims to be. That, in our opinion, is a very "un-Christian" way of behaving.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're a boon to RF Katzpur.

 

[Muffled]

The quick answer is, yes they are Christian.
However they are also more Christian, than those that deny them.

My own church would describe their faith as dangerous ... as they do any non Trinitarian. But then I am an Anglican (heretic)

I believe I have no idea what criteria you are using. It appears to me that the denying denominations are just as much Christian.

I believe there are a lot of variations on this subject but it seems to me that Christianity hangs on the authority of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So my belief is that although variant if someone does not recognize Jesus and/or The Holy Spirit as God as long as he recognizes the authority is that of God it still is Christian.