Is The Christian forgiveness for sin, or Atonement real?

[Ellen Brown]

The understanding of forgiveness for sin is all over the place. In most legal systems, "if you do the deed, you do the time". I don't argue with that because of the hopeful deterrent that punishment after a sin is "said" to offer. And, perhaps the subsequent guilt leaves on needing to be punished?

I am aware of a group that, for a time, practiced "blood atonement", paying for one's sin in kind.

In Islam, though I do not know all the details, murder can be forgiven by the victim's family for a price.

In the Bible, once we know we have sinned, and we are contrite, then repentant, it is forgiven.

Though Jesus strongly preaches for forgiveness, even demanding it, most know what it is to have someone hold a grudge against us.

To live a life devoid of offense toward God is the most demanding discipline I can think of.

 

[Thief]

I am getting gold.....and the guilt trip continues....

sin is not the simple action/reaction I was taught when soooo much younger

sin....translates from Spanish as ….
without
I think that condition defines the action/reaction to a greater degree

whatever separates you from heaven is a sin
because you won't be living there

 

[Enoch07]

To live a life devoid of offense toward God is the most demanding discipline I can think of.

It is a fallacy, and impossible as well.

Though we try our best.

 

[leov]

The understanding of forgiveness for sin is all over the place. In most legal systems, "if you do the deed, you do the time". I don't argue with that because of the hopeful deterrent that punishment after a sin is "said" to offer. And, perhaps the subsequent guilt leaves on needing to be punished?

I am aware of a group that, for a time, practiced "blood atonement", paying for one's sin in kind.

In Islam, though I do not know all the details, murder can be forgiven by the victim's family for a price.

In the Bible, once we know we have sinned, and we are contrite, then repentant, it is forgiven.

Though Jesus strongly preaches for forgiveness, even demanding it, most know what it is to have someone hold a grudge against us.

To live a life devoid of offense toward God is the most demanding discipline I can think of.

God interested in changing of consciousness not in punishing your past transgressions. If you changed and do not repeat is enough for God.

 

[Kenny]

The understanding of forgiveness for sin is all over the place. In most legal systems, "if you do the deed, you do the time". I don't argue with that because of the hopeful deterrent that punishment after a sin is "said" to offer. And, perhaps the subsequent guilt leaves on needing to be punished?

I am aware of a group that, for a time, practiced "blood atonement", paying for one's sin in kind.

In Islam, though I do not know all the details, murder can be forgiven by the victim's family for a price.

In the Bible, once we know we have sinned, and we are contrite, then repentant, it is forgiven.

Though Jesus strongly preaches for forgiveness, even demanding it, most know what it is to have someone hold a grudge against us.

To live a life devoid of offense toward God is the most demanding discipline I can think of.

I agree totally but got stumped on the last line... why towards God?

 

[robocop (actually)]

What difference does it make if the atonement is real as long as it's the single greatest motivator of humanity? Yes science is important too but Christ's miracles motivate us to want to do that as well.

 

[Thief]

let's back up to a previous scenario....briefly stated

God's Favored held position directly to the right hand of God
something happened
and for cause of influence.....logic
God's Favored along with one third of heaven …..fell

the story I got coincides with the creation of Man
though Man was not the cause of the fall

sin existed BEFORE the garden event

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I simply don't pretend to have all the answers, certainly not to the question of how God's mercy and justice work together.

But certainly, blood sacrifice is not necessary for atonement. Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire. 1 Samuel 15:22 To obey is better than sacrifice. Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

 

[robocop (actually)]

let's back up to a previous scenario....briefly stated

God's Favored held position directly to the right hand of God
something happened
and for cause of influence.....logic
God's Favored along with one third of heaven …..fell

the story I got coincides with the creation of Man
though Man was not the cause of the fall

sin existed BEFORE the garden event

God's favored was Jesus. Lucifer was the guy who proposed no free will and one third of Heaven followed Him. Jesus wanted choice. That's how it goes for me.

 

[dingdao]

The black and white (legalism) of the bible comes up lacking when dealing with people.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
does not mean the same as
Do not do to others what you do not wnat done to you.

Personal preferences vary widely.

 

[Thief]

God's favored was Jesus. Lucifer was the guy who proposed no free will and one third of Heaven followed Him. Jesus wanted choice. That's how it goes for me.

the story I got.....
Let us create Man in our image

after that the story varies quite a bit
I go on in this manner.....

Man is fragile...therefore, seek after him that he dash not his foot nor his head

God's Favored and one third of heaven said ...Nay!
that Man is less than we are
he should be made to serve us!

there's nothing wrong with that logic

but it led to rebellion and fall from grace

it should be noted ….
Man is a creature that does unto lesser things
and even unto his fellowman

to whom do we bear resemblance...????

 

[robocop (actually)]

the story I got.....
Let us create Man in our image

after that the story varies quite a bit
I go on in this manner.....

Man is fragile...therefore, seek after him that he dash not his foot nor his head

God's Favored and one third of heaven said ...Nay!
that Man is less than we are
he should be made to serve us!

there's nothing wrong with that logic

but it led to rebellion and fall from grace

it should be noted ….
Man is a creature that does unto lesser things
and even unto his fellowman

to whom do we bear resemblance...????

I respect you a ton but you confuse me.

 

[Thief]

I respect you a lot but you confuse me.

I will try for you.....

picture yourself at God's right hand.....yes you can

God has an interest in blending spirit and physical form
and it seems possible but with results unknown

the experiment takes hold with Man as a species (Day Six)
but he is a creature like all others
snatch and grab
run and hide
kill whatever he can

and God says....to you....
seek after him
that he not harm himself as he goes running about
that he not dash his head as he stumbles

that makes you a caretaker
to a creature more to flesh than spirit
and you are stuck with the task.....cause God said so

and you.....along with one third of heaven …..refuse to do so

the story I got.....
swords were drawn....brother angel against brother angel
and one third of heaven fell

the Fallen want you (as a human) dead
two thirds of heaven lost their brothers
They are likely to be disgusted by the situation

and we (as fellow mortals) are caught in between

 

[robocop (actually)]

the story I got.....

Let us create Man in our image -> OK

after that the story varies quite a bit
I go on in this manner.....

Man is fragile...therefore, seek after him that he dash not his foot nor his head -> that was Lucifer's plan

God's Favored and one third of heaven said ...Nay! -> that was Jesus with two thirds
that Man is less than we are
he should be made to serve us! -> that is OK to serve, but it also let man make his own choices so he could experience growth

there's nothing wrong with that logic -> agreed

but it led to rebellion and fall from grace -> the rebellious loved man true

it should be noted ….
Man is a creature that does unto lesser things
and even unto his fellowman -> true

to whom do we bear resemblance...???? -> true but we also do good things. Jesus tries to help us all choose so some will go bad and some go good but Lucifer didn't want them to experience free will.

Now I will re-comment on your story from a Raelian perspective for your amusement.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I will try for you.....

picture yourself at God's right hand.....yes you can -> OK I'm picturing it

God has an interest in blending spirit and physical form
and it seems possible but with results unknown -> OK

the experiment takes hold with Man as a species (Day Six)
but he is a creature like all others
snatch and grab
run and hide
kill whatever he can -> OK

and God says....to you....
seek after him
that he not harm himself as he goes running about
that he not dash his head as he stumbles

that makes you a caretaker
to a creature more to flesh than spirit
and you are stuck with the task.....cause God said so

and you.....along with one third of heaven …..refuse to do so -> Why would you refuse?

the story I got.....
swords were drawn....brother angel against brother angel
and one third of heaven fell

the Fallen want you (as a human) dead -> The Fallen want us taken care of
two thirds of heaven lost their brothers
They are likely to be disgusted by the situation

and we (as fellow mortals) are caught in between -> OK

 

[robocop (actually)]

OK... now I will reply from the Raelian perspective for you...

 

[robocop (actually)]

The Raelian response

the story I got.....
Let us create Man in our image -> Aliens created men out of their DNA

after that the story varies quite a bit
I go on in this manner.....

Man is fragile...therefore, seek after him that he dash not his foot nor his head -> Man was primitive, so Lucifer, the team of Aliens that did the creation, wanted to help them advance

God's Favored and one third of heaven said ...Nay!
that Man is less than we are
he should be made to serve us! -> The Elohim who were the good guys in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are now the bad guys... the people on the Alien home world were scared of being attacked and wanted slavery.

there's nothing wrong with that logic

but it led to rebellion and fall from grace -> They pardoned Lucifer soon after, so that doesn't matter.

it should be noted ….
Man is a creature that does unto lesser things
and even unto his fellowman

to whom do we bear resemblance...???? -> Satan used this as a tactic to try to destroy humans and it almost worked with Noah's Ark.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The understanding of forgiveness for sin is all over the place. In most legal systems, "if you do the deed, you do the time". I don't argue with that because of the hopeful deterrent that punishment after a sin is "said" to offer. And, perhaps the subsequent guilt leaves on needing to be punished?

I am aware of a group that, for a time, practiced "blood atonement", paying for one's sin in kind.

In Islam, though I do not know all the details, murder can be forgiven by the victim's family for a price.

In the Bible, once we know we have sinned, and we are contrite, then repentant, it is forgiven.

Though Jesus strongly preaches for forgiveness, even demanding it, most know what it is to have someone hold a grudge against us.

To live a life devoid of offense toward God is the most demanding discipline I can think of.

It is

In the Bible god forgives sinners and even shows love to them
In Islam I believe that would not be the claim

Romans 5:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

see also
God Demonstrates His Love

 

[robocop (actually)]

Raelian response:

I will try for you.....

picture yourself at God's right hand.....yes you can _> If I were a human creator, an Alien, I would be on that planet

God has an interest in blending spirit and physical form
and it seems possible but with results unknown -> OK

the experiment takes hold with Man as a species (Day Six)
but he is a creature like all others
snatch and grab
run and hide
kill whatever he can -> to be fair, Satan gave them weapons and prompted them to kill as evidence of their unworthiness.

and God says....to you....
seek after him
that he not harm himself as he goes running about
that he not dash his head as he stumbles

that makes you a caretaker
to a creature more to flesh than spirit
and you are stuck with the task.....cause God said so

and you.....along with one third of heaven …..refuse to do so -> the one third that doesn't like Humanity

the story I got.....
swords were drawn....brother angel against brother angel
and one third of heaven fell -> There was a lot of political fighting but I think you're flattering yourself... the Aliens wouldn't fight each other physically

the Fallen want you (as a human) dead
two thirds of heaven lost their brothers
They are likely to be disgusted by the situation -> agree

and we (as fellow mortals) are caught in between -> agree

 

[Ellen Brown]

I agree totally but got stumped on the last line... why towards God?

I'll have to work on this more. I had thought it to be a loose quote of the Bible...