Is the Christian cross a symbol representing Scapegoating?

[DennisTate]

Where in your bible do you find a detailed description of how jesus looked?
Where did you find a detail description of how Saul looked?

Bruce F. MacDonald Ph. D. had a near death experience in 1966.... met both Moses and Elijah and yes... .Yeshua during his NDE...... and within twenty years as he meditated missing details were filled in.......

The Thomas Book

Page 215:

A member of the Pharisees asked him one day if he was the Son of God.
Yeshua replied, “You also are a Son of God.”

“No! To claim such a thing would be blasphemy. I dare not claim such a title. Do not speak to me of that.”

Yeshua looked at him intently, and then spoke. “You sense within yourself how close to God you are, but you are afraid to step closer. Was not Adam a Son of God? And are you not a spark of the Divine Fire? It is easier to be a mortal obeying laws than a portion of the Spirit of God lighting the paths of others. It is not blasphemy you fear, but responsibility. Yet I tell you, the yoke I would lay on you by making you a Son of God is lighter than the yoke of the Law. My yoke will bear you up: the Law can only weight you down until you fall exhausted in the dust.”(Bruce F. MacDonald Ph. D.)

Yes.. I can see how Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus making statements like that would offend some Jewish teachers of his time period....... especially those appointed by King Herod the Great...........

There is more over here on those missing details.....


Could Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus really have said this?

 

[Akivah]

Bruce F. MacDonald Ph. D. had a near death experience in 1966.... met both Moses and Elijah and yes... .Yeshua during his NDE...... and within twenty years as he meditated missing details were filled in.......

Unsubstantiated and un-provable claims by one individual. Yes, I can see how that is persuasive....NOT!

You are proving with each post, that this is a joke thread. Satire at its finest.

 

[DennisTate]

Unsubstantiated and un-provable claims by one individual. Yes, I can see how that is persuasive....NOT!

You are proving with each post, that this is a joke thread. Satire at its finest.

No..... because in pages 137 - 170 of his book....... Bruce F. MacDonald Ph. D........
actually the person who he was in the first century..... one of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus twelve disciples........ who has reincarnated as a string of people.... and now is a Canadian professor of literature..........
pleads GUILTY...... to an act..... .that Jews have been accused of for many centuries........................

I kid you not.............

There is far, far, far, far more going on here than meets the eye......

Mar 15:43

Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

......

Luk 23:52

This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.'


Jhn 19:38

And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus."

 

[icehorse]

I agree....believing the Carpenter died for our sins is incorrect
He died because of them

Isn't him dying because of our sins a minor variation on the idea of scapegoating?

 

[icehorse]

Why do you believe that's what the text is? Seems overly southern baptist without jesus really.

I didn't cite any text, my claim is that many Christians say "Jesus died for our sins". That idea seems like scapegoating, or a minor variation on scapegoating.

 

[icehorse]

Actually, scapegoat comes from a Jewish act that they did once a year.

I would look at it this way: in comparison to sinlessness it is man that is morally bankrupt, Thus the "scapegoat" is a good message because we find forgiveness, righteousness and wholeness in it.

As far as the symbol... it isn't a necessary symbol... I think before the cross symbol, a fish symbol was used--but again... not a necessary symbol.

I think that your counter argument is:
- oft recited
- unhealthy.

The idea that a loving creator created us broken and in sin, and that all we have to do for redemption is suspend our critical thinking skills is pathological. I strongly disagree that "man is morally bankrupt". I find that an extremely offensive claim. Now I suspect that you didn't intend to offend anyone, your claim is quite common. But I think if you step back and try to look at it objectively, it's actually quite a demeaning and offensive idea.

 

[icehorse]

I always thought the point was not to use Jesus as a scapegoat but to use him as an example. That we each not only forgive ourselves of our own sins but we forgive our fellow man of their sins.

I'm struggling to connect the dots here. How is crucifying a man an example of forgiveness? This seems like a dogmatic answer that doesn't really hold up well to critical analysis.

 

[icehorse]

According to the Bible, Jesus volunteered to come to the earth as a human and give his life to replace the one Adam lost by disobeying God. He wasn't used as a scapegoat. He offered to do it.

To me this is a distinction without a difference. For example, if Fred commits murder should Bob be allowed to take Fred's punishment for him? I don't think so, that seems incredibly immoral to me. no?

 

[icehorse]

The death of Jesus for the sins of the world is not about scapegoating... it is about Love

This strikes me as a common response, but I don't see how you connect the dots? This strikes me as a somewhat dogmatic, or knee-jerk, or canned response, but it doesn't hold up to critical scrutiny. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[icehorse]

Christians did not chose to sacrifice Jesus or for him to die for our sins. So to say we are scapegoating Christ is false.

But isn't it the case that Christians are asked to agree with the idea that Jesus died for their sins? Isn't accepting that idea after the fact, extremely similar to agreeing that scapegoating is a good idea?

 

[icehorse]

there is no love in all the world greater than that of a man who would lay down his life for his friend.

I think you're conflating two ideas here. If a hero on a battlefield sacrifices his life for his fellows, that is indeed an amazing act of love.

But for a modern Christian to accept the idea that he's born broken and that 2000 years ago Jesus sacrificed himself - in advance - seems to me to be a minor variation on scapegoating. Please tell me how you connect the dots differently?

 

[icehorse]

I think the message is that Jesus defeats sin for mankind at the cross. To say that Jesus did this of His own will and not man's. And that Jesus satisfied his own justice by bearing sin for all.

So it is some sort of a rescue mission.

I think that this - at the very least - forces the believer to assume that he's born broken. That seems pathological to me, not at all healthy.

 

[icehorse]

The number of people rejecting the Christian faith is large. Those standing anti-Christ in our society are numerous. You have your beliefs and we have ours. That is all it comes down to.

If the message is not understood from A to Z naturally, there can be no acceptance of it.

I can accept that you have a belief that I don't. I don't think you can logically argue that to say "Jesus died for our sins" isn't a form of scapegoating.

 

[icehorse]

God became man and in so by doing redeemed us from our otherwise inescapable estrangement from Him.

Christians believe that as a consequence of sin entering the world humanity became estranged from God. Since God has infinite dignity (and all sin being an insult against that dignity) no possible means of recompense was available to us. (The finite cannot cover for the infinite). Thus humanity was barred from its ultimate end which is happiness with God.

God as man alone possessed the means to make good on our debt, since God even as a man still retains His infinite dignity as God. The incarnation in no way whatsoever diminished who the Son is as God. Jesus did not scapegoat for us so much as He paid our debt on our behalf, again being capable of doing so as a consequence of the incarnation. Since sin has a price and since God is just, all accounts must eventually be settled. Christ settled ours, but it is still on us to accept and cooperate with that grace. When one rejects Christ, one rejects the only means of mediation with God.

As for the Cross, it is a symbol of Christ's triumph over sin and death. Two seemingly omnipotent forces of human reality rendered impotent at the very moment of their seeming victory over the God man. As it will ultimately be for the eventual triumph of the Church over the world. Matthew 16:18

This is all standard theological mumbo-jumbo. None of this logically refutes my claim. Again, my claim is that the idea that "Jesus died for our sins" is a variation on scapegoating.

 

[Nakosis]

I'm struggling to connect the dots here. How is crucifying a man an example of forgiveness? This seems like a dogmatic answer that doesn't really hold up well to critical analysis.

I see it as forgiving the worst possible thing humanity can do to you.

Jesus forgave what was done to him. The crucifixion itself was an act of evil done by man.

Paul I think saw this as a sin offering based on Hebrew tradition, whereas human sacrifice is pretty much against Hebrew tradition.

To believe this sacrifice was required by God is to believe God went against his own word.

 

[icehorse]

Jesus forgave what was done to him. The crucifixion itself was an act of evil done by man.

This is a fair point. I can see how for Jesus to forgive his tormentors is a great example of forgiveness.

The part I'm struggling with is the idea that "Jesus died for our sins". That's the idea that seems like scapegoating to me.

 

[Kenny]

The idea that a loving creator created us broken and in sin,.

Since your foundational premise is wrong, according to the narrative given, then the rest of your statments don't need to be addressed.

 

[Nakosis]

This is a fair point. I can see how for Jesus to forgive his tormentors is a great example of forgiveness.

The part I'm struggling with is the idea that "Jesus died for our sins". That's the idea that seems like scapegoating to me.

This idea of Jesus dying for our sins must seem sacreligious to Jews. The ultimate corruption of their beliefs. I can imagine Jews looking at Christian belief and saying to themselves "Are you ****ing kidding me?"

It's just not a good idea to say out loud in a nation full of Christians.

 

[osgart]

I think that this - at the very least - forces the believer to assume that he's born broken. That seems pathological to me, not at all healthy.

Not to mention it cheats the believers who have good intentions out of their own identity. For every believer is called to deny themselves, and lift up Jesus.

I grew up with those Christian pressures, they always made me angry, but I played along with it to keep the peace. Heaven or hell ultimatums, born sinners all, it was easier to play a long then go against the grain of it and be a rebel outcast.

 

[Thief]

Isn't him dying because of our sins a minor variation on the idea of scapegoating?

no....
in practice as described in the old testament.....

you find a proper animal.....a really nice one
take it to Moses.

He would lay his hands on you
lay his hands on the goat
the animal would then be led into the wilderness by someone 'appropriate'
staked to the ground and left there to die
your sins die with the animal

Jesus was executed for insurrection
on His cross Pilate posted.....Jesus-King of the Jews

He did not take away our sins by His death

that was done by His ministry .....His teachings