Is the biblical flood story copied from the Gilgamesh Epic?

[mohammed_beiruti]

Is the biblical flood story adopted from the Babylonian epic Gilgamesh? I believe that it is and would like to put forward why I think that it is.

1. As we know, Israel in its infancy was a lesser society that those around it. Greater societies influence lesser societies. Why would a Babylonia author copy a lesser society’s story?
2. Floods were a common occurrence in Mesopotamia not in Canaan where the Jewish tribes were located.
3. The ark is said to have landed on Mt Ararat which is in the far northern part of Mesopotamia (Modern eastern Turkey near the board of Iran).
4. The Gilgamesh Epic, written in Acadian, was the literary classic of its time and was translated into many different languages. A fragment was found in Megiddo (located near now present Haifa) dated to around 1400BCE (about the time of Abraham).
5. Abraham came from the northern part of Mesopotamia and might have brought the story south with his family.
6. The biblical story follows the Gilgamesh Epic almost word for word,in the details, except in the addition of morality element (why the flood to destroy mankind) and the covenant element with God (rainbow in sky). Definite Jewish theological beliefs.
7. At the end of Chapter 8 when Noah offers a sacrifice to God it tells us that God “smelled” the sweet savor of the sacrifice. This is the only place in the bible that has reference to God smelling a sacrifice. This is showing God as an anthropomorphic being. This is something found in polytheistic worlds when they write about their gods. This is what we find at the end of the Gilgamesh Epic. This was left in because it really doesn’t violate any old Israel theology but just interesting that this is the only place we find it.

I believe It's a real story, it wan't taken from mythology.

Qura'an confirm that there were a great flood in the time of Noah(pbuh).

even excavations discovered the Ark of Noah at the mount of Judi.

It's not a fiction, it's real.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I believe It's a real story, it wan't taken from mythology.

Qura'an confirm that there were a great flood in the time of Noah(pbuh).

even excavations discovered the Ark of Noah at the mount of Judi.

It's not a fiction, it's real.

Have they actually proven this is Noah's Ark with actual evidences and proofs or is it just like that claim of finding Firon in Egypt? You know Emperor Justinian claimed to have found Noah's Ark too, and know what he said he did with it? Built the doors of Hagia Sophia!

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Have they actually proven this is Noah's Ark with actual evidences and proofs or is it just like that claim of finding Firon in Egypt? You know Emperor Justinian claimed to have found Noah's Ark too, and know what he said he did with it? Built the doors of Hagia Sophia!

Qura'an said that the ark landed on Mount "Cudi" ( "Judi" in Arabic). and that was more than 1400 year ago. I mean before the excavations and the discoveries.

then after 1400 years the excavation poited out that the Ark of Noah is actually had landed on mount Cudi. do you mean this is a coincidence.

Mt. Cudi, Mountain Of Noah

It is a real story, however the mythologies may had made it fictional.

 

[Pegg]

I believe It's a real story, it wan't taken from mythology.

Qura'an confirm that there were a great flood in the time of Noah(pbuh).

even excavations discovered the Ark of Noah at the mount of Judi.

It's not a fiction, it's real.

i hope you dont think that is a real picture of the ark

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

i hope you dont think that is a real picture of the ark

well, I've read many article about Noah's ark, am not sure about the picture whether it's amended by photoshop or it's rael

if you are confused with it, check this site also , Information on Noah's Ark

 

[esmith]

That doesn't really change anything. Because we can see the Jewish religion acknowledging various gods during its history. We can see Jews worshiping multiple gods during its history. The argument you're making doesn't work when we look at ancient Judaism.

According to my information, before the Babylonian dispersion the Jewish religion recognized that there were more than one God but as religious belief they worshiped only one God. After the Babylonian dispersion they became truly monotheistic and only recognized the one God.

 

[gnostic]

Those are quite vague similarities. But I will address each.

1). The two dimensions are different, and the number of decks are different. The Epic of Gilgamesh ark was 6 stories tall and square. The Hebrew ark 3 stories high and rectangular. Basically, there is a similarity, that both are massive boats.

2). The population of the arks were different. The Gilgamesh story includes additional people on the ark; some skilled workers and a pilot. As for the animals on the ark, yes, there was a sample of all animals, but they don't match. The two accounts in Genesis don't even match about how many animals were included.

3). The detailed description of the flood is found in many flood stories. The story revolves around the flood, so of course they are going to detail it. However, even the details on the two stories disagree. In the Hebrew version, we see it raining, as well as water coming from the ground. It rained 40 days and 40 nights. The Gilgamesh story, it only rains, and that lasts 6 days.

4). The mountain top landing is only logical. Actually, we happen to see this to be the case in various flood stories. In addition though, both stories have the ark landing on different mountains.

5). Again, a common theme in these flood stories. Most likely because it is logical. The Hebrew flood stories uses birds we would expect. The raven and dove appear throughout Hebrew tradition. More so though, the birds are not exactly the same.

6). Setting everyone free is only logical. The flood recedes, the people are freed. It is a logical ending to a story.

7). The sacrifice is also a common theme. All nations in the area offered up sacrifices to the gods.


The stories have similarities, and the similarities become even more when one becomes quite vague. However, we see many of those similarities in other societies as well. The fact that they appear in other cultures shows that we should not make to much out of many of these connections.

Very good, fallingblood.

There is a difference between the Mesopotamian and Hebrew myths. Important difference, which I think you could have put in.

Where the Genesis say that the flood was brought about because believe that humans were evil. In the Mesopotamian version it is not about humans were evil, but because they made too much noises with talks. That talking irritated Enlil. Enki/Ea was the one who save Ziusudra/Atrahasis/Utnapishtim.

 

[fallingblood]

well, I've read many article about Noah's ark, am not sure about the picture whether it's amended by photoshop or it's rael

if you are confused with it, check this site also , Information on Noah's Ark

It's not Noah's ark. One can be fairly certain on that by knowing how fast wood rots away. That and understanding that a ship that big would be have been nearly impossible to float.

 

[esmith]

A aircraft carriers doesn't float?

Just had to jab you with that one

 

[outhouse]

I believe It's a real story, it wan't taken from mythology.

Qura'an confirm that there were a great flood in the time of Noah(pbuh).

even excavations discovered the Ark of Noah at the mount of Judi.

It's not a fiction, it's real.

that is a natural rock formation, it is not the ark period.

that was found false almost 20 years ago lol

 

[outhouse]

Fallingblood, is this why you take your stance? Are you still followingthe greek tradition??

The past criteria for literary criticism have been derived either from features of the text itself, or from presuppositions brought to the text. Some of these criteria and presuppositions came from Homeric criticism in Greek literature (43) which during the last half of the 18th century and the first half of the 19th century A.D. was the most ancient literature available for comparison. Although the much older cuneiform literature of Mesopotamia and the hieroglyphic literature of Egypt now have been opened through the work of scholars over the past century and a half, biblical criticism still retains the Greek tradition, especially in dividing the present unified canonical form of the Pentateuch into multiple original sources. It is as if J, E, D, and P wrote in a cultural vacuum without receiving any literary influences from their environment.

http://www.grisda.org/origins/11009.htm

 

[fallingblood]

Fallingblood, is this why you take your stance? Are you still followingthe greek tradition??

The past criteria for literary criticism have been derived either from features of the text itself, or from presuppositions brought to the text. Some of these criteria and presuppositions came from Homeric criticism in Greek literature (43) which during the last half of the 18th century and the first half of the 19th century A.D. was the most ancient literature available for comparison. Although the much older cuneiform literature of Mesopotamia and the hieroglyphic literature of Egypt now have been opened through the work of scholars over the past century and a half, biblical criticism still retains the Greek tradition, especially in dividing the present unified canonical form of the Pentateuch into multiple original sources. It is as if J, E, D, and P wrote in a cultural vacuum without receiving any literary influences from their environment.

Shea, W. H. --- A Comparison of Narrative Elements in Ancient Mesopotamian Creation-Flood Stories with Genesis 1-9

My view point is more of a neutral stance. I don't flat out say that the Hebrews were not influenced by other ideas. However, I also don't accept the influences unless they can be shown completely.

I will admit that there is a possibility that the Hebrews knew of some form of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Most likely, this was in an oral form, and not written. However, I won't support that position because I don't think it is well enough supported with the current information that we have. Because of that, I see it more probable that the Hebrews had some type of flood tradition that formed along the lines of how various other flood traditions formed.

 

[outhouse]

My view point is more of a neutral stance. I don't flat out say that the Hebrews were not influenced by other ideas. However, I also don't accept the influences unless they can be shown completely.

I will admit that there is a possibility that the Hebrews knew of some form of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Most likely, this was in an oral form, and not written. However, I won't support that position because I don't think it is well enough supported with the current information that we have. Because of that, I see it more probable that the Hebrews had some type of flood tradition that formed along the lines of how various other flood traditions formed.

From what im finding, the more work one does on this subject,,, the middle road is common with intesive work being done. on each side you have want and opinions that vary. I will note higly religous scholars even lean middle road on this subject, like the above link I posted. I learned allot about how critical scholars get.

My personal opinion is that there is to much in common not to look seriously at this as a viable option. the early sumerian text matches very close, more so then any other other flood. Seeing how the writers of that time freely added fiction to storys I can persoanly see a clear path of how the story came to be since many pagan traditions carried through.

Learning real history is my favorite part of this website, i find all this fasinating and valuable

 

[wilsoncole]

when you quit spouting the creation myth as reality I will answer all your questions in great detail.

Dodge, dodge, dodge! That’s all you do. You know nothing about the Bible but you condemn it anyway. If you think you can easily remove creation from the Bible, then you are free to try. But as long as it is there, I will proclaim it loudly. You have no alternative anyway. You cannot unwrite history.

until then you need to try and find reality with a education.

This is unbelievable! You actually said the very same thing again.
You better fix your record player, man. It is broken.

"Get an Education"
He says:
You mean like the genius16-year-old Harvard freshman who turned out to be Theodore Kaczynski, PhD?
He sure had you guys pegged right - here:

http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/howard/Anarchism/Unabom/manifesto.html

Pay careful attention to paragraphs 24 through 28 and see if you and those like you do not fit like a glove.

Your mind is closed and you have been shown facts and flat deny them.

Turn those words around and you will find that they aptly describe yourself.

please go derail another evolution thread with nonsense, either you can contribute to this one or you cannot.

so far you cannot

Still, you will read what I write anyway - no matter what it is.

like a creationist you can only pick on someone elses ideas

You mean like all that baloney about the Bible being stolen from pagan mythology? Did you come up with that idea yourself or should I go ahead and show you where you picked it up? Sites like this one:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm
Right?

Pick on someone else’s ideas? You’re the champ!
　
　
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Wilson

 

[wilsoncole]

there are hundreds of charts that show comparisons of all floods, go find them yourself.

I have such a list of accounts for a worldwide flood and how they compare. Would you like to see it?

if you want to use a 3000 year old book for a science and history book in modern times go for it.

The you go again - just like the parrot.
I can prove that, historically, the Bible is much more accurate than many of your modern history books.
Name an ancient historical account that you can prove actually occurred and I will show you how the Bible dealt with it.

There's your challenge!
I expect you to dodge around that, too.

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Wilson

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I can prove that, historically, the Bible is much more accurate than many of your modern history books.

Good luck with that one -- no one else has been able to do it.

 

[wilsoncole]

Not from what we can tell. The Bible even tells us that there was Jews who worshipped various other gods. Even after they started focusing worship on God, they stilled acknowledged that there were other gods.
A lot of those phrases seem to be vaguely similar. Others seem like logical things that would be stated. For instance, the dove went out and returned. That is quite logical. Or the phrases about building a roof for the ark, or covering it with pitch. They are quite logical to be placed into such a story.

We can find various gods saying the same things in many different cultures. We can find similar stories in various cultures, which use similar phrasings. To start claiming that they all borrow from each other would be a little radical.

Mr. Blood,
There is another way of looking at flood information, quite different from those offered by theorists:
Scriptures say that, following the flood, when the population grew large enough on the Plains Of Shinar in the vicinity of Mt. Ararat, the first city built was Babylon, with its massive Tower of Babel.
From there they scattered:
"These were the families of the sons of Noah according to their family descents, by their nations, and from these the nations were spread about in the earth after the deluge." (Genesis 10:32)
Even their genealogy is mentioned, a detail in no other ancient commentary.
I think most people, when referring to flood legends, adopt the belief that the Hebrews accepted and taught elements from those legends.

This is not the case.

They either discount or exclude the possibility that those scattering peoples took with them stories of the flood which they could not forget, distorted them and passed them on to their generations.

Going all the back to the earliest times, the facts seem to bear out this possibility since the monotheistic patriarchs and their progeny practiced no paganism:

"Watch yourself that you do not conclude a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, for fear it may prove itself a snare in your midst.&#12288;But their altars YOU people are to pull down, and their sacred pillars YOU are to shatter, and their sacred poles YOU are to cut down..&#12288;.&#12288;." (Exodus 34:12-13)​

It was only much, much later that the Hebrew Israelites began ignoring their own laws and mixed with pagans to their own downfall.

So....
The pagans got the story from the Hebrews - not the other way 'round.

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Wilson

 

[astarath]

Uh...No. I didn't read anything about Noah in the Gilgamesh story must be two different stories regarding a similar event.

 

[wilsoncole]

Good luck with that one -- no one else has been able to do it.

I don't believe in luck.

I take it, then, that you are willing to take up the challenge:
"Name an ancient historical account that you can prove actually occurred and I will show you how the Bible dealt with it."



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Wilson

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I don't believe in luck.

I take it, then, that you are willing to take up the challenge:
"Name an ancient historical account that you can prove actually occurred and I will show you how the Bible dealt with it."



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Wilson

Alexander the Great's Conquests.