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Featured Is the Bible Anarchist?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Xavier Graham SA, Aug 15, 2021.

  1. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love, is love, is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    When I say anarchist, I mean the philosophy that there should be no state.
    I believe the Bible has overarching anarchist themes. I believe this is most obvious in the books Judges-2 kings.
    Starting in Judges, the Israelites had no king. All the other nations did. They weren’t necessarily an anarchist state, perhaps a theocracy. They were ruled by Judges. These Judges were selected directly by God, and raised up only when Israel was in military trouble / under oppression. After the judge Samuel, Israel told him that they wanted a king instead of another Judge. The Bible explicitly states that this is sin, wanting a king, rather than being under the rule of God. Samuel and God talk about this. Then Samuel explicitly tells Israel that they are sinning. Can wanting a king be applied to wanting a human government in general?
    So Israel got their king, and eventually David was King. At the end of David’s life, he ordered a census. The Bible explicitly paints this as a sin, and Israel is punished by a mighty plague because David completes the census. The census was used for taxation and conscription purposes, so can taxation and conscription be viewed negatively?
    I think government is inherently sinful, and I think that I can use Biblical arguments to state that.
    If you think the Bible supports the notion of government, why? Do you have anything more than “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s”?
     
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  2. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Since we were conceived as perfect humans in the mind of God, we are destined to perfection.

    Nevertheless, we descend from animals. Evolution is a scientific fact. We are evolving into perfect beings but it takes time. Lots of time.
    So government is needed to assure that justice prevails.

    But if we were all perfect as angels are, we would need no government, because there would be only justice and peace. And evil would not exist.
     
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  3. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment,[a] and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment 3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation 4 because it is God’s servant for your well-being. But be afraid if you do wrong because government[c] does not bear the sword for nothing. It is God’s servant to administer punishment on the person who does wrong. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath of the authorities[d] but also because of your conscience.[e] 6 For this reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities[f] are God’s servants devoted to governing.[g] 7 Pay everyone what is owed: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

    Bible Gateway passage: Romans 13:1-7 - New English Translation

    That being said, the Bible is the Big Book of Multiple Choice, and I'm sure you can also find material in support of anarchism (as you can find material both supporting and opposing literally any viewpoint).
     
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  4. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love, is love, is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    I liken this submission to authority to that of the teaching of turning the other cheek. We are in no position to resist, but that doesn’t mean we have to condone government.
     
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    It doesn't?

    Again:

    For there is no authority except by God’s appointment.

    I read the passage as saying that to disobey governmental authority is to disobey God.
     
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  6. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love, is love, is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    And often times the authority is immoral. The Bible has numerous examples of God anointing people who would turn out to be immoral kings. Often times the governments actions were immoral. God took care of it, not us laypeople. I think that’s what the verse is referring to. How can we support an immoral government as Christians?
     
  7. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Anarchy is not a philosophy. It is a state of social and political chaos.
     
  8. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    We should not support an immoral government or leader.
    But that doesn’t me we will do what is right.
    We still have free choice to vote for an adulterer, for instance.
    imo
     
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  9. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I almost totally agree with you. The vast majority of what government is involved in would not be needed.

    But there would still be a need for coordinating and organizing services such as fire protection, disaster assistance and the like.
     
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  10. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love, is love, is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    Austrian economics theorizes on how the free market would provide those services in absence of a state. I believe it’s theoretically possible for all essential services to exist in absence of a state
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I believe that we have to put this question in context.....why do we have human governments in the first place?

    Other nations had kings...but so did Israel....he just wasn’t visible, but he had given them ample visible proof of his oversight and guidance. His human appointees were given instructions that they were to carry out to the letter in guiding Israel in their daily lives and in their worship. By demanding a human king, Israel was accusing their God of not being good enough for them. They had again fallen for the problem of “walking by sight and not by faith” (2 Corinthians 5:7)

    Their God was far from an inadequate King...yet despite his dire warnings that imperfect men would lead them to trouble, they were permitted have their wish. God has done this from the beginning...to allow mankind to experience the results of their own choices. It was better to show them, rather than to just tell them....

    Anarchism benefits no one because as @PureX has so rightly said....Anarchy is not a philosophy. It is a state of social and political chaos.

    Jehovah is not a God of chaos...he is a God of order. To protect his own servants, he has human allowed political powers to rule, each keeping relatively peaceful conditions for the majority down through time, but the scriptural warning applied...
    Proverbs 29:2...
    “When the righteous become many, the people rejoice; but when anyone wicked bears rule, the people sigh.“

    God’s own people have been among those who sigh. But as Paul said...
    Romans 1:1-4
    Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.”

    For the benefit of his own servants God allows this flawed human rulership for now, because some order is better than none whilst we await the coming of His Kingdom.
    To assume that humans can live in peace without some kind of authority to make necessary restrictions to keep them in line, is actually wishful thinking. Even under so called democratic rule, where certain freedoms are enjoyed, that freedom is often taken for granted and abused, causing trouble for everyone else. Prisons are full of those who would otherwise be free to terrorize others, making fear the dominant emotion for all. Would you really like to live in such a world?....aren’t we already living in precarious times right now, in spite of it? God has demonstrated that humans having power over other humans will simply corrupt them. Everything happens for a reason in the big scheme of things.

    Remember.....”whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves”.....no worshipper of the true God can therefore be an anarchist. It doesn’t mean that we have to vote them in, or support their bad decisions, or fight in their wars....they will answer to God for that.....Christians can live peaceably (as circumstances allow) abiding by the laws of the land so that they can carry out the assignment that Jesus gave to all his disciples, whilst being “no part of the world”. (John 18:36) That assignment was to advertise the best government that mankind could ever have....God’s Kingdom.....it will “come” and it will remove all failed human rulerships and replace them for all time to come. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) That is the big picture for me.

    The question for us is.....“will we be among its citizens?” Our obedience to God now, I believe will determine that. We have to work within God’s direction...not against it.

    Again your choices are yours to make, but taking all things into consideration is important IMO.
     
  12. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love, is love, is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    He incorrectly stated. There is a whole branch of philosophy devoted to how an anarchist society would work. It’s not just “wishful thinking” rather, a thoroughly theorized concept.
    The etymological definition of anarchy doesn’t mean “no rules” it means “no rulers”. The free market serves as the governing force. Anarcho-capitalist theory and Austrian economics are examples of developed philosophy on the topic.
    In the absence of government, muh roads would still be built
     
  13. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Interesting. But I don't see that when I looked The Austrian School of Economics

    There's nothing I could find about how fire services would be provided to everyone without some organization (government).
     
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  14. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love, is love, is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

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    Here is an essay on how police services would be provided for in a free market. It’s a bit lengthy, and I know it’s not firemen but it’s the same concept. Private property owners would provide the services of fire protection more efficiently than a government, is the basic idea behind the theory.
    Privatize the Police | Murray N. Rothbard
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Do you think that God is interested in man's efforts to bring about what he has already foretold that He would do?
    The result you seek is the one that will be facilitated by God's Kingdom. Mankind have already demonstrated that they are appallingly inept at governing themselves, no matter what system they try....each one has seemed good on paper, but no good in practice because of flawed human nature. Unless you fix the sin in man, nothing will change. That is why I believe that God's solution is the only one that will work.
    He will fix the world from the ground up. By eliminating sin, he will begin to implement his first purpose...to have obedient humans living in paradise conditions forever here on earth, taking care of God's creation and making this earth a fit place to give the Creator the credit he deserves for his efforts. The earth itself is beautiful....its the people who aren't. o_O

    God has given permission for these world rulers to keep a semblance of peace on the earth until his Kingdom finishes its purpose once and for all. This is why Christ gave his life....he is the appointed king and if we look elsewhere for man made solutions, what makes us think that it could work, when no other system ever has?

    Roads would be the least of anyone's worries. :( Human nature is flawed and the best ideas he has ever come up with have seemed like a good solution....but they have all failed miserably.....what makes you think this would be any different?
     
  16. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Men as humans doing all the talking quote gods laws everything are natural.

    Status to teach so don't change anything.

    Natural life only was a group with elderly advice. Mutual living conditions everyone working had worked will work.

    Governing by mutual human family agreement for purpose human family.

    As when men claim they talk on behalf of god the God they claim precedes them is all status natural.
     
  17. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    What is your problem?
     
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  18. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    Israel was a state under God, God's chosen people with their tribes and land allotments (borders).
    Under the Levitical Law, there was a hierarchy and ruling body that determined justice, social order, familial relations, hygiene and worship.
    For all intents and purposes, Israel, as either a theocracy or monarchy, had a government - temple taxes were paid, priestly judges weighed and exacted justice, censuses were taken, men were conscripted, cities were fortified, borders were enlarged, economies and trade were established, alliances were made with other nations, etc...
     
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  19. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Every problem was caused by not respecting the natural family group.

    Still today the natural family group is not respected.

    You give titles a group strategy as if it always owns all answers.

    Life says you cannot get back what you took away from natural status. The family.

    You complain about hierarchy not working then try to force hierarchy to work.

    All systems chosen need restructuring otherwise total world chaos will ensue. we might not agree where life has taken us yet we sure took it to where it is today.

    So the first status richest humans need to restructure their purpose. As they own controls. Not all rich are royals are they.

    Christ is used to claim anarchy anarchist.

    We were never royalty in other words. Rich is the problem.

    Yet some rich men blame royalty. Some royals are now poor so you should realise rich men are always the human problem.

    As not living by family natural status they presume they are the best problem solvers.

    You would find that a lot of family members own better rationale than business people.

    And life always equal which even science states is natural reality lived natural status. Elder life.

    The status God with Christ is not elder life. It's claim a young man's life was superior. Where baby man scientist a young man made his first chosen mistakes.

    By not heeding elder advice.

    In tribal communities the elder is now ignored by young people.

    Which is a pertinent human teaching today.
     
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  20. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    Buddy, you're flippin' weird.
     
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