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is tao theisitc or nontheistic

is Tao/Dao a theisitc concept


  • Total voters
    38

Salek Atesh

Active Member
I don't think the Dao itself fits into any meaningful definition of theism. Theistic relationships involve worship and the seeking of patronage from more powerful beings who are still somehow imagined to be like us. The Dao just is. One does not pray to it, one does not make offerings to it, and it is not going to show greater partiality towards one person or another. The Dao is the Dao.

It would be like saying the Buddhist concept of Nirvana were theistic, to use a closely related analogy. (Both traditions have plenty of room for gods, but neither concept is a god.)

I think the confusion arises because mystical Christians and others tend to call the ultimate reality "God," but that's not really theism either, despite the name; it's the broadening of theistic language to the point where it's really referring to something else altogether.

It all boils down to semantics and how one defines a "god". All "-theisms" are sort of flawed in this manner, as most monotheists use a different definition of "god" then most polytheists.

The Tao could fit some people's definition of "god". It doesn't fit other peoples' definitions. So it can be theistic, or not. Ultimately, it just shows Tao Te Ching 25 to be true: the Tao cannot be accurately named.
 

Baladas

An Págánach
I don't think the Dao itself fits into any meaningful definition of theism. Theistic relationships involve worship and the seeking of patronage from more powerful beings who are still somehow imagined to be like us. The Dao just is. One does not pray to it, one does not make offerings to it, and it is not going to show greater partiality towards one person or another. The Dao is the Dao.

It would be like saying the Buddhist concept of Nirvana were theistic, to use a closely related analogy. (Both traditions have plenty of room for gods, but neither concept is a god.)

I think the confusion arises because mystical Christians and others tend to call the ultimate reality "God," but that's not really theism either, despite the name; it's the broadening of theistic language to the point where it's really referring to something else altogether.

I agree. Having started my journey as a mystical Christian, it seems logical to me that a lot of the confusion comes from assuming that "God" (Christian God) is the greatest Reality.
Of course, Christians are not the only perpetrators but they are the most numerous.
 

chevron1

Active Member
>>Everything about the Tao te Ching seems to be pointing to the Tao as the non physical part of nature, which would be the spiritual part, which is only evident through its influence on the physical, it certainly doesn't appear to be non spiritual.

A metaphysical understanding of Tao as a panentheistic system. Non-being (wu or cosmic mother) is conceived as a type of undefined substance. The universe (being) is a fetus generated from the primal energy of Creation.

wu_tai_ji.png
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
You're right that's exactly what I think the emptiness is in Buddhism, the non physical part of the universe, the spiritual. That is also what I think God really is not a lot of that nonsense Abrahamic religion tries to pin on God.
 

chevron1

Active Member
>>That is also what I think God really is not a lot of that nonsense Abrahamic religion tries to pin on God.

Do you believe that if there were a God, that it would be the Abrahamic kind; by that i mean, if there were a God, would He be the kind of God in the bible? Of would He be the kind of God in another religion? I was just curious, because I am Taoist who is willing to believe in all the gods, because they are all children of Tao.
 

chevron1

Active Member
>>I think the emptiness is in Buddhism, the non physical part of the universe, the spiritual....

The cosmic mother wu is non-physical only in the sense that wu is outside the existential universe. Wu is ontic or metaphysically real, in the sense that if you could break through the fabric of reality, you might be able to detect it. Of course, since wu represents something non-existential, is it possible to see something outside the universe that doesn't "exist" in the conventional conception? Well, mathematically, the cosmic mother could be something like a quantum vacuum, which has very interesting properties. One day, the Hadron collider (or its descendant) may let us see quantum pseudo-space. :)
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I think a God with qualities as described in the Old Testament would be by definition a false God, not the true God. At the same time I think it quite likely, at least possible, that Jesus was in contact with the true God, as was Buddha, as was Lao Tzu, and to my primitive understanding of the True God to me, the Tao comes the closest. To me God has to be 100% truth, no lies, not truth + violence, not truth + anger, that does not compute in my little brain!!
 

chevron1

Active Member
>>I think God as described in the Old Testament would be by definition a false God, not the true God. At the same time I think it quite likely, at least possible, that Jesus was in contact with the true God....

Then if you were to become a Christian (hypothetically), you would be a New Testament Christian only?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I have utmost respect for most of Jesus' teachings, and think a small number of them were added and not by Jesus, especially all the nonsense about Son of God and Trinity etc. So I consider myself Christian, as in follower of Jesus, but not Christian, as in accepting most of the dogma about Jesus from the Christian religions, I consider myself a follower of the Tao, but not necessarily a Taoist so to speak, as I do not know enough about the Taoist religion. I've had a personal relationship with my God, which I consider the Tao, and have sort of my own ideas about religion and what it means to me, so I'm sure I don't fit in 100% with any organized religion.
 

chevron1

Active Member
>>So I consider myself Christian, as in follower of Jesus, but not Christian, as in accepting most of the dogma about Jesus from the Christian religions, I consider myself a follower of the Tao, but not necessarily a Taoist so to speak, as I do not know enough about the Taoist religion.

There is no religion of Tao that is the best religion for everyone. It's just that in my conception, everyone lives or can live peacefully. I believe that even the Abrahamic co-existence movement is not as peaceful as they claim to be. Those other religions must be like the Golden Idol to God.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Peace is very important, its not that I don't believe gods of War exist, I just do not consider them worthy of worship or attention. It is my sincere hope that the Abrahamic religions are just wrong about the violent, angry, hateful, intolerant characteristics attributed to their God, if their God is half as bad as they seem to portray "him" as, this world is in for a heap of trouble, because that God's followers make up 2/3ds of the world. Personally I think devout people of all faiths can reach the true God, no matter what name they call God, but insincere people are largely led astray by false gods that fill their heads with nonsense.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
You're right that's exactly what I think the emptiness is in Buddhism, the non physical part of the universe, the spiritual.

In Buddhism emptiness is nothing to do with being non-physical, it's the absence of independent existence, an expression of conditionality.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Sorry but you are an avowed atheist, and onetime anti theist I believe, how could you possibly understand the emptiness or the Tao??

I should remind you this is the Taoism DIR and as far as I know you are a Buddhist not a Taoist.
 
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chevron1

Active Member
>>In Buddhism emptiness is nothing to do with being non-physical, it's the absence of independent existence, an expression of conditionality.

I have this understanding as well: Buddhist emptiness is not the same as metaphysical Taoist non-being. The Buddhist void is a pure lack of substance. The Taoist void only seems empty ("profoundly empty") but is something that feels "almost real" and is the "substrate" for all things. The Taoist void is outside existence; hence it is undefined substance, not pure emptiness.

In classical Taoism, Creation proceeds from the energy transformations 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> *; this energy is within Tao and transforms into the universe. The Buddhists believe in Dependent Origination, which is spontaneous generation, being comes from being. In Taoism, being comes from nonbeing.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
As a Buddhist monk for a very short time and temple boy for a year, and in many writings I have read, I've been taught over and over Emptiness does not mean empty, that is a fundamental misunderstanding, in one aspect Emptiness actually means full, Emptiness means not physical, not directly visible, I came to believe, there's a lot of nonsense being spread about emptiness by the secular Buddhist and Forest Monk tradition, which is a fundamentalist very literalist almost cult that rejects mainstream Therevada Buddhism as corrupt, unfortunately on the web the Forest Tradition and secular Buddhist sort of drown out the more tradition Buddhist schools, which are mostly centered in Asia, and don't have a very strong English language voice, I was trained by traditional South East Asian refugee temples that taught a Buddhism that was very different from what you read on the web. Some of these conservative traditional Buddhist even profess belief in God, they see no contradiction between God and Buddhism. I'm not sure that Emptiness is similar to Tao, but its the impression I have, emptiness was taught as the source of much of the Buddha's wisdom, and one of the hardest things to understand and comprehend without long study, so I would be careful to suspect pat definitions of what the Emptiness is anymore than I would be careful to suspect pat definitions of what the Tao is.
 

chevron1

Active Member
I'm not sure that Emptiness is similar to Tao, but its the impression I have, emptiness was taught as the source of much of the Buddha's wisdom, and one of the hardest things to understand and comprehend without long study, so I would be careful to suspect pat definitions of what the Emptiness is anymore than I would be careful to suspect pat definitions of what the Tao is.

Emptiness is not the same as non-being, although some have used them the same. Emptiness is to many Buddhists the lack of substance, because all is illusion (sunyata). Do you believe in annatta? It is the only kind of nonexistence that Buddhists of our world recognize. While non-being and annatta are the different kinds no-souls, a non-being soul is a substance. Is an annatta soul substance? I have heard that Buddhists do not believe in soul.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
The Tao is only a word, the word Tao isn't what is, the Tao cannot be reduced to a mere concept, its nothingness, and not even that.
 

chevron1

Active Member
The Tao is only a word, the word Tao isn't what is, the Tao cannot be reduced to a mere concept, its nothingness, and not even that.

The Tao in metaphysics (which is the specialization of Taoism from Wang Bi the philosopher) must be a concept to be metaphysical. Metaphysical Taoism (玄学 aka the Dark Learning) is a theory of everything. To be theory of everything, it must explain everything and that includes reality.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
The Tao in metaphysics (which is the specialization of Taoism from Wang Bi the philosopher) must be a concept to be metaphysical. Metaphysical Taoism (玄学 aka the Dark Learning) is a theory of everything. To be theory of everything, it must explain everything and that includes reality.
Everything is everything, it doesn't need explaining, it is what it IS, and you and I will never know what that is, we can experience it, we are it, but the mind will never grasp it.
 

chevron1

Active Member
Everything is everything, it doesn't need explaining, it is what it IS, and you and I will never know what that is, we can experience it, we are it, but the mind will never grasp it.

I strongly disagree because if you cannot explain they will fight over it. They are fighting over it now, so we must try to understand it to achieve peace.
 
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