Is suicide a sin if the person is not mentally competent to be responsible?

[Kenny]

In another Religious forum I started this thread and got surprising responses overtly condemning suicide by Christians.

It depends on what you mean by this.

There is all types of things that we would call sin, but it doesn't necessarily translated into "you don't get to go to Heaven".

Are you saying we should celebrate suicide and not say you shouldn't commit suicide?

 

[Shantanu]

It depends on what you mean by this.

There is all types of things that we would call sin, but it doesn't necessarily translated into "you don't get to go to Heaven".

Are you saying we should celebrate suicide and not say you shouldn't commit suicide?

You give hope to people living in desperation that there are good times to come.

 

[shunyadragon]

It depends on what you mean by this.

There is all types of things that we would call sin, but it doesn't necessarily translated into "you don't get to go to Heaven".

OK, but incomplete. . . and?

Are you saying we should celebrate suicide and not say you shouldn't commit suicide?

Neither

 

[Jollybear]

Is suicide a sin if the person is not mentally competent to be responsible?

It is well accepted today that the cause of the majority of suicides is mental illness. Yet in most of Judaism, Christianity and Islam suicide is considered self-murder in many if not most cases.

The Bible does not specifically address suicide as the sin of self-murder, but nonetheless it is widely forbidden.

Even though Islam condemns suicide in the scriptures, many justify suicide bombing as martyrdom.

The Baha'i Faith condemns suicide, and considers suicide a tragedy, but allows considerable leeway on the circumstances of the suicide, and allows for the contemporary behavioral science understanding of suicide as a mental illness.

This more a discussion of the different views and changing views in churches and other beliefs facing the issue in the contemporary world. The problem is the tragic rise of suicides throughout most cultures of the world.

When you use the word "mental illness" it almost sounds like your saying the human beings actions are controlled? As if they wer a robot and cannot help but commit suicide?

 

[shunyadragon]

When you use the word "mental illness" it almost sounds like your saying the human beings actions are controlled? As if they wer a robot and cannot help but commit suicide?

No, your over reaching the medical nature of 'mental illness.'

 

[Jollybear]

No, your over reaching the medical nature of 'mental illness.'

Ok, so why is mental illness type suicide the person is less responsible then say a suicide from someone who dont have mental illness?

 

[Shantanu]

When you use the word "mental illness" it almost sounds like your saying the human beings actions are controlled? As if they wer a robot and cannot help but commit suicide?

It is still a desirable thing to advise people against committing suicide especially if one is a Theist and believes in God to have created a good if not perfect universe.

 

[Kenny]

OK, but incomplete. . . and?




Neither

Then, what exactly are you trying to say? It sounded like that one shouldn't condemn suicide by calling it wrong

 

[shunyadragon]

Then, what exactly are you trying to say? It sounded like that one shouldn't condemn suicide by calling it wrong

No, I have made no such statement. This is just a discussion of the issues around 'suicide; from different religious and personal perspectives. One of the problems facing our society is the fact that the tragic rate of suicides is increasing.

 

[Kenny]

No, I have made no such statement. This is just a discussion of the issues around 'suicide; from different religious and personal perspectives. One of the problems facing our society is the fact that the tragic rate of suicides is increasing.

Agreed, and we should definitely address

Then, at the least, I would say that post #2 is superfluous.

On the other end, sometimes I wonder if there are spiritual influences that cause people to consider it. I remember my sister-in-law who called us from Venezuela when she was but a teenager. She said '"Every time I cross this bridge, I hear a voice saying 'Jump and kill yourself'".

I think it should be considered.

 

[Shantanu]

One of the problems facing our society is the fact that the tragic rate of suicides is increasing.

Whose problem in society is it specifically?

 

[Vinayaka]

For me, suicide is never a sin, can't be a sin, as there is no sin in my religion. That isn't to say it's not sad, or recommended. Generally speaking, it's not recommended. But neither do we have hard and fast set rules. The reason is that each and every embodied jiva is different. We simply can't make rules that encompass every single situation. Those situations vary tremendously from a murderer committing suicide before the authorities arrive to someone refusing medical treatment for an incurable disease. Karma, on the other hand, permeates all action, and is ultimately fair. The Lord of Karma, generally considered to be Ganesha, can see each and every situation, and apply it accordingly.

 

[Erebus]

Ok, so why is mental illness type suicide the person is less responsible then say a suicide from someone who dont have mental illness?

Because mental illness affects the way in which a person thinks and feels.

For example, a common symptom of depression is the feeling of being a burden to others. Quite a lot of people who kill themselves as a result of depression genuinely believe that their family and friends would be better off without them. Somebody without depression (or another illness that produces depressive symptoms) is less likely to hold that belief.

That's just one example, it would take far too long to list the ways in which each mental illness can impact thought processes. The long and short of it is that a person driven to suicide by mental illness is at that moment almost certainly unable to think in the same way as somebody without a mental illness.

 

[Jollybear]

Because mental illness affects the way in which a person thinks and feels.

For example, a common symptom of depression is the feeling of being a burden to others. Quite a lot of people who kill themselves as a result of depression genuinely believe that their family and friends would be better off without them. Somebody without depression (or another illness that produces depressive symptoms) is less likely to hold that belief.

That's just one example, it would take far too long to list the ways in which each mental illness can impact thought processes. The long and short of it is that a person driven to suicide by mental illness is at that moment almost certainly unable to think in the same way as somebody without a mental illness.

Effects the way they think, but, does not control the way they think?

They still have responsibility.

 

[shunyadragon]

Then, at the least, I would say that post #2 is superfluous.

It was a factual reference.

On the other end, sometimes I wonder if there are spiritual influences that cause people to consider it. I remember my sister-in-law who called us from Venezuela when she was but a teenager. She said '"Every time I cross this bridge, I hear a voice saying 'Jump and kill yourself'".

I think it should be considered.

It sounds like your attributing a 'spiritual evil' as a possible source of the desire of people to commit suicide. I prefer the understanding of the issue of mental illness, which is better understood by science. Problems of mental illness is by degree and the ability of individuals to control harmful or in the case of suicide deadly desires. Mental illness, either momentary of chronic is the best documented cause of most suicide. Hearing voices is known to be factor in some types of mental illness. Of course, some can manage these voices and desires, but others may not. I believe a more integrated mental health care in our lives is a significant part of the answer.

 

[shunyadragon]

Effects the way they think, but, does not control the way they think?

They still have responsibility.

In terms of the degree of mental illness involved it is well documented that simply demanding responsibility on the individual with mental illness is not reality. In fact is a rather cold hearted response without understanding mental illness and its consequences.

 

[shunyadragon]

Because mental illness affects the way in which a person thinks and feels.

For example, a common symptom of depression is the feeling of being a burden to others. Quite a lot of people who kill themselves as a result of depression genuinely believe that their family and friends would be better off without them. Somebody without depression (or another illness that produces depressive symptoms) is less likely to hold that belief.

That's just one example, it would take far too long to list the ways in which each mental illness can impact thought processes. The long and short of it is that a person driven to suicide by mental illness is at that moment almost certainly unable to think in the same way as somebody without a mental illness.

Depression is a very much a matter of degree. Most people may feel some degree of depression at times in their lives, and may feel they are a burden on others, and worthless, but others with severe depression this may dominate their lives.

 

[Erebus]

Effects the way they think, but, does not control the way they think?

They still have responsibility.

Put if this way, if you sincerely believe that your family, friends and the world at large would be better off without you, do you think that would have no impact on your actions?

 

[Erebus]

Depression is a very much a matter of degree. Most people may feel some degree of depression at times in their lives, and may feel they are a burden on others, and worthless, but others with severe depression this may dominate their lives.

Spot on.

 

[Jollybear]

Depression is a very much a matter of degree. Most people may feel some degree of depression at times in their lives, and may feel they are a burden on others, and worthless, but others with severe depression this may dominate their lives.

So, indirectly they have no choice? I know thats not what your saying, but thats what im hearing.

Put if this way, if you sincerely believe that your family, friends and the world at large would be better off without you, do you think that would have no impact on your actions?

So, indirectly they have no choice? I know thats not what your saying, but thats what im hearing.

Can you not control what you think and what you do?