Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe one must be careful not to let tradition replace theology. Santa Claus is tradition but he should not replace Jesus on the day of celebration of His birth.
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Is Sola Scriptura Unbiblical?
I believe one must be careful not to let tradition replace theology. Santa Claus is tradition but he should not replace Jesus on the day of celebration of His birth.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
There was an actual St. Nicholas at one point. You can search it in google.
Hi Shunyadragon
1) The OP asks : “If any sort of theological position is to be proven using the Bible, then it must follow that the Bible has to teach that only the Bible is the source of theological truth. What would you say if someone said that Sola Scriptura is unbiblical?”
Clear responded: Sola Scriptura never worked to conclusively settle specific religious conflicts and that it is not particularly “biblical”.
Shunyadragon. You seem to want to point out that some early theologians believed in a form of sola scriptura. Is this correct? If this is correct, can you explain clearly how this applies to the question in the Opening Post?
2) Shunyadragon mentioned : “What the purality or most Christians consider important is the understanding of the Church Fathers …”
Whether this theory is correct or not, How does it apply to the Opening Posts question about Sola Scriptura?
3) Shunyadragon said : “The issue of whether 'Sola Scriptora cannot confirm anything or some things is not the issue, because it is a believe set in scripture and commentary by the Church Fathers.”
I am not sure what you are trying to say here since religious debates often involve matters that conflict with early Christian theologians. I can’t tell how an answer to the OP depends upon “church fathers”. Can you explain how this applies to the opening post?
4) Shunyadragon said : “Actually, it is factually unknown what specific early Judeo-Christian doctrines and practices were before ~50-100 AD, We have scrapes and hints, but nothing specific.”
I mentioned that there are many, many early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses that form multiple genres of early witnesses to early Judeo-Christian doctrines. Doctrinal patterns in multiple early texts form a basis for wonderful historical models for early Judeo-Christian doctrines for the periods we are speaking of (peri-b.c. / 50-100 a.d.).
For example, consider a single volume from Charlesworth. He gives almost 2000 (two thousand) pages of examples from Jewish pseudoepigraphs. These represent ONLY those discovered when he compiled this collection and ONLY “Jewish” pseudoepigraphs (though they are syncretic) and ONLY those translated into English at the time of the collection and ONLY those that he thought significant enough to include and ONLY the major recension and ONLY one translation of the recension (with a few exceptions).
That is, it represents a small portion of the entire genres that have existed and are being discovered and translated.
Consider :
A) apocalyptic literature of this specific time period :
1st Enoch (2nd century b.c. to 4th century a.d and beyond) – It is syncretic, having Jewish origins and used by Christians (biblical writers also used Enochian references),
Sybylline Oracles (2nd century b.c. to 7th century a.d.),
Treatise of Shem (1st century b.c.),
Apocryphon of Ezekiel,
Apocalypse of Zephaniah, Late first century a.d.
4th Book of Ezra (not to be confused with the “vision of Ezra” or the “Questions of Ezra, or “Revelation of Ezra” - religious texts of later eras),
3rd Baruch (1st to 3rd century c.e.),
Apocalypse of Abraham (1st to 2nd century c.e.),
Apocalypse of Elijah (1st to 4th century c.e.).
Consider
B) Testament literature from this time period :
Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (2nd century b.c.),
Testament of Job (1st century b.c. to 1st Century a.d.),
Testament of Abraham (1st to 2nd century a.d.),
Testament of Moses (1st century a.d.),
Testament of Solomon (1st to 3rd century a.d.)
Consider
C) Expansion documents, misnashas, textual traditions, lectionaries, etc from this time period :
The Letter of Aristeas (3rd century b.c. – 1st century a.d.)
Jubilees (2nd century b.c. and it remains in the eastern canon today)
Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (2nd century b.c. – 4th century a.d.)
Joseph and Aseneth (1st century b.c. – 2nd century a.d.)
Life of Adam and Eve (1st Century a.d.)
Pseudo-Philo (1st century a.d.)
The lives of the Prophets (1st century a.d.)
Ladder of Jacob (1st century a.d.)
4th Baruch (1st to 2nd century a.d.)
Jannes and Jambres (1st to 3rd centuries a.d.)
History of the Rechabites (1st to 4th centuries a.d.)
Eldad and Modad (prior to 2nd century a.d.) (this one is fragmented)
Consider
D) Wisdom and Philosophical literature from this time period :
3rd Maccabees (1st century b.c.)
4th Maccabees (1st century a.d.)
Pseudo-Phocylides (1st century b.c. – 1st Century a.d.)
More Psalms of David (3rd century b.c. – 1st century a.d.)
Prayer of Manasseh (2nd century b.c. – 1st century a.d.)
Psalms of Solomon (1st century b.c.)
Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (2nd to 3rd century a.d.)
Prayer of Joseph (1st century a.d.)
Prayer of Jacob (1st – 4th century a.d.)
Odes of Solomon (late 1st to early 2nd century a.d.)
Consider
E) fragments of lost Judeo-Hellenistic works :
Theodotus (2nd to first century b.c.)
Orphica (2nd century b.c. – 1st century a.d.) – an oracular document
Ezekiel the tragedian (2nd century b.c.) – a drama
Fragments of Pseudo-Greek poets (3rd to 2nd century b.c.) – a mixed set of documents but, if you are familiar with the church fathers as you indicate, then you will see the church fathers quote these documents frequently :
Examples include Hesiod, Pythagoras, Aeshylus, Sophocles, Euripides, diphilus/Philemon/Euripedes, Diphilus/Menander, Philemon/Menander
Within this genre is a subset of historical documents
Aristeas the Exegete (NOT the letter of Aristeas) (prior to 1st century b.c.) -
Eupolemus and pseudo-Eupolemus and Cleodemus Malchus (whome Josephus, another jewish historian of the time period quotes) (all are prior to first century b.c.)
Another subset is the ‘romance” or “fictional stories”
Artapanus (3rd to 2nd century b.c.)
Pseudo-Hecataeus (2nd century b.c. to 1st century a.d.) he was quoted by Josephus and by Origen
The above texts ONLY represent Charlesworths group, i.e. ONLY Jewish epigraphs,and ONLY those within the per-c.e. era (I left out all documents before 3rd century b.c. and after 2nd century a.d.) I have not yet touched upon the Dead Sea Scroll library, the linguistic texts, papyri, etc. Most of the Charlesworth texts exists in MULTIPLE versions and in multiple languages and from differing geological origin. I've left out important early c.e. Christian documents such as the didache and 1 clement and haven't added any of the apostolic fathers either.
The Dead Sea Library sequestered near the first century consists of over 1200 texts the authors of which are unknown, however several of them have contributed to insights and understanding of Judeo-Christianity and specific doctrine patterns that existed in the earliest Christian movements and it’s literature.
Also, specific linguistic texts with their own insights have added much to our understanding of how language (specifically, koine greek) before, during and after this time period was used and how it changed. Moulton and Milligan examined thousands of papyi from multiple sources that have changed the way we view the text. This is not only secular usage, but early Christian enclaves such as Oxyrhynchus and their papyri have added to specific Christian usage of words that changed basic greek dictionaries.
For example, Προ-Οριξω of the KJV of 1611 was rendered “predestination” but Jean Dorees in the 19th century with additional knowledge uses the more correct rendering of “limits” and “plans” made beforetime. Lightfoot predicted that if we could see how normal people used the language of the bible (koine grerk) in their daily correspondence, it would be of greatest help in helping us understand what the language of the bible meant. Such discoveries of early Papyri render Lightfoots prediction almost prophetic.
As one coordinates the various parallel doctrines found in various pre and post c.e. era documents, one can see how the doctrines of one era flow into and continue to be represented in the literature of the early Christian movement as well as indicate which doctrines were lost and which evolved and which remained intact. In this way, these early Judeo-Christian documents become textual witnesses of the early Judeo-Christian doctrines and frequently, these textual witnesses are more clear and more detailed than the biblical text in describing early Judeo-Christian doctrines.
If ANYONE wants examples of how parallel doctrines between multiple early documents coordinate to support early Judeo-Christian doctrines, please let me know.
Such early textual witnesses demonstrate that sola scriptura is not the only way to determine what early historical judeo-christian doctrines were.
In any case, as you consider the multiple early texts from a historical context, you will discover that they contribute to and enhance our understanding of early Judeo-Christian doctrines and practices.
I hope your life and journey is full and wonderful Shunyadragon.
Clear
ειτωνετωω
1) The OP asks : “If any sort of theological position is to be proven using the Bible, then it must follow that the Bible has to teach that only the Bible is the source of theological truth. What would you say if someone said that Sola Scriptura is unbiblical?”
Clear responded: Sola Scriptura never worked to conclusively settle specific religious conflicts and that it is not particularly “biblical”.
Shunyadragon. You seem to want to point out that some early theologians believed in a form of sola scriptura. Is this correct? If this is correct, can you explain clearly how this applies to the question in the Opening Post?
2) Shunyadragon mentioned : “What the purality or most Christians consider important is the understanding of the Church Fathers …”
Whether this theory is correct or not, How does it apply to the Opening Posts question about Sola Scriptura?
3) Shunyadragon said : “The issue of whether 'Sola Scriptora cannot confirm anything or some things is not the issue, because it is a believe set in scripture and commentary by the Church Fathers.”
I am not sure what you are trying to say here since religious debates often involve matters that conflict with early Christian theologians. I can’t tell how an answer to the OP depends upon “church fathers”. Can you explain how this applies to the opening post?
4) Shunyadragon said : “Actually, it is factually unknown what specific early Judeo-Christian doctrines and practices were before ~50-100 AD, We have scrapes and hints, but nothing specific.”
I mentioned that there are many, many early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses that form multiple genres of early witnesses to early Judeo-Christian doctrines. Doctrinal patterns in multiple early texts form a basis for wonderful historical models for early Judeo-Christian doctrines for the periods we are speaking of (peri-b.c. / 50-100 a.d.).
For example, consider a single volume from Charlesworth. He gives almost 2000 (two thousand) pages of examples from Jewish pseudoepigraphs. These represent ONLY those discovered when he compiled this collection and ONLY “Jewish” pseudoepigraphs (though they are syncretic) and ONLY those translated into English at the time of the collection and ONLY those that he thought significant enough to include and ONLY the major recension and ONLY one translation of the recension (with a few exceptions).
That is, it represents a small portion of the entire genres that have existed and are being discovered and translated.
Consider :
A) apocalyptic literature of this specific time period :
1st Enoch (2nd century b.c. to 4th century a.d and beyond) – It is syncretic, having Jewish origins and used by Christians (biblical writers also used Enochian references),
Sybylline Oracles (2nd century b.c. to 7th century a.d.),
Treatise of Shem (1st century b.c.),
Apocryphon of Ezekiel,
Apocalypse of Zephaniah, Late first century a.d.
4th Book of Ezra (not to be confused with the “vision of Ezra” or the “Questions of Ezra, or “Revelation of Ezra” - religious texts of later eras),
3rd Baruch (1st to 3rd century c.e.),
Apocalypse of Abraham (1st to 2nd century c.e.),
Apocalypse of Elijah (1st to 4th century c.e.).
Consider
B) Testament literature from this time period :
Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (2nd century b.c.),
Testament of Job (1st century b.c. to 1st Century a.d.),
Testament of Abraham (1st to 2nd century a.d.),
Testament of Moses (1st century a.d.),
Testament of Solomon (1st to 3rd century a.d.)
Consider
C) Expansion documents, misnashas, textual traditions, lectionaries, etc from this time period :
The Letter of Aristeas (3rd century b.c. – 1st century a.d.)
Jubilees (2nd century b.c. and it remains in the eastern canon today)
Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (2nd century b.c. – 4th century a.d.)
Joseph and Aseneth (1st century b.c. – 2nd century a.d.)
Life of Adam and Eve (1st Century a.d.)
Pseudo-Philo (1st century a.d.)
The lives of the Prophets (1st century a.d.)
Ladder of Jacob (1st century a.d.)
4th Baruch (1st to 2nd century a.d.)
Jannes and Jambres (1st to 3rd centuries a.d.)
History of the Rechabites (1st to 4th centuries a.d.)
Eldad and Modad (prior to 2nd century a.d.) (this one is fragmented)
Consider
D) Wisdom and Philosophical literature from this time period :
3rd Maccabees (1st century b.c.)
4th Maccabees (1st century a.d.)
Pseudo-Phocylides (1st century b.c. – 1st Century a.d.)
More Psalms of David (3rd century b.c. – 1st century a.d.)
Prayer of Manasseh (2nd century b.c. – 1st century a.d.)
Psalms of Solomon (1st century b.c.)
Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (2nd to 3rd century a.d.)
Prayer of Joseph (1st century a.d.)
Prayer of Jacob (1st – 4th century a.d.)
Odes of Solomon (late 1st to early 2nd century a.d.)
Consider
E) fragments of lost Judeo-Hellenistic works :
Theodotus (2nd to first century b.c.)
Orphica (2nd century b.c. – 1st century a.d.) – an oracular document
Ezekiel the tragedian (2nd century b.c.) – a drama
Fragments of Pseudo-Greek poets (3rd to 2nd century b.c.) – a mixed set of documents but, if you are familiar with the church fathers as you indicate, then you will see the church fathers quote these documents frequently :
Examples include Hesiod, Pythagoras, Aeshylus, Sophocles, Euripides, diphilus/Philemon/Euripedes, Diphilus/Menander, Philemon/Menander
Within this genre is a subset of historical documents
Aristeas the Exegete (NOT the letter of Aristeas) (prior to 1st century b.c.) -
Eupolemus and pseudo-Eupolemus and Cleodemus Malchus (whome Josephus, another jewish historian of the time period quotes) (all are prior to first century b.c.)
Another subset is the ‘romance” or “fictional stories”
Artapanus (3rd to 2nd century b.c.)
Pseudo-Hecataeus (2nd century b.c. to 1st century a.d.) he was quoted by Josephus and by Origen
The above texts ONLY represent Charlesworths group, i.e. ONLY Jewish epigraphs,and ONLY those within the per-c.e. era (I left out all documents before 3rd century b.c. and after 2nd century a.d.) I have not yet touched upon the Dead Sea Scroll library, the linguistic texts, papyri, etc. Most of the Charlesworth texts exists in MULTIPLE versions and in multiple languages and from differing geological origin. I've left out important early c.e. Christian documents such as the didache and 1 clement and haven't added any of the apostolic fathers either.
The Dead Sea Library sequestered near the first century consists of over 1200 texts the authors of which are unknown, however several of them have contributed to insights and understanding of Judeo-Christianity and specific doctrine patterns that existed in the earliest Christian movements and it’s literature.
Also, specific linguistic texts with their own insights have added much to our understanding of how language (specifically, koine greek) before, during and after this time period was used and how it changed. Moulton and Milligan examined thousands of papyi from multiple sources that have changed the way we view the text. This is not only secular usage, but early Christian enclaves such as Oxyrhynchus and their papyri have added to specific Christian usage of words that changed basic greek dictionaries.
For example, Προ-Οριξω of the KJV of 1611 was rendered “predestination” but Jean Dorees in the 19th century with additional knowledge uses the more correct rendering of “limits” and “plans” made beforetime. Lightfoot predicted that if we could see how normal people used the language of the bible (koine grerk) in their daily correspondence, it would be of greatest help in helping us understand what the language of the bible meant. Such discoveries of early Papyri render Lightfoots prediction almost prophetic.
As one coordinates the various parallel doctrines found in various pre and post c.e. era documents, one can see how the doctrines of one era flow into and continue to be represented in the literature of the early Christian movement as well as indicate which doctrines were lost and which evolved and which remained intact. In this way, these early Judeo-Christian documents become textual witnesses of the early Judeo-Christian doctrines and frequently, these textual witnesses are more clear and more detailed than the biblical text in describing early Judeo-Christian doctrines.
If ANYONE wants examples of how parallel doctrines between multiple early documents coordinate to support early Judeo-Christian doctrines, please let me know.
Such early textual witnesses demonstrate that sola scriptura is not the only way to determine what early historical judeo-christian doctrines were.
In any case, as you consider the multiple early texts from a historical context, you will discover that they contribute to and enhance our understanding of early Judeo-Christian doctrines and practices.
I hope your life and journey is full and wonderful Shunyadragon.
Clear
ειτωνετωω
Last edited:
POST ONE OF TWO
AN EXAMPLE OF HOS MULTIPLE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE AND WITNESS TO A SPECIFIC EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
It is very difficult for non-historians to imagine how multiple early Judeo-Christians textual witnesses can coordinate as a witness to the existence of and details about a specific Judeo-Christian doctrine.
I felt it would be important therefore to offer forum readers an example of an early Judeo-Christian doctrine that is woven into the texts of B.C. era Judeo-Christian texts and flows through the peri-ce era Christian theology and their texts and flows further into the doctrines of A.D. era texts. I thought the base doctrine of the pre-creation existence of spirits in heaven would be a good example. So, let me give an example and sprinkle some reasons why this early doctrine was important into the example itself.
MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS
Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :
Inasmuch as these are HISTORICAL texts one must try to read the words in the ancient context. For example when Adam's spirit (in abbaton text) is placed into his body and be thereby becomes a man, he exclaims that he is "created" into another form. In the ancient context, he is referring, NOT to his spirit (which obviously did exist since it talked and communicated and did things), but he was re-created into a MAN. Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)
The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)
In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.”
After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)
The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham : “Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)
The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).
When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.
“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)
“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)
The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)
In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)
In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits : “And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them.... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)
post two of two follows
AN EXAMPLE OF HOS MULTIPLE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE AND WITNESS TO A SPECIFIC EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
It is very difficult for non-historians to imagine how multiple early Judeo-Christians textual witnesses can coordinate as a witness to the existence of and details about a specific Judeo-Christian doctrine.
I felt it would be important therefore to offer forum readers an example of an early Judeo-Christian doctrine that is woven into the texts of B.C. era Judeo-Christian texts and flows through the peri-ce era Christian theology and their texts and flows further into the doctrines of A.D. era texts. I thought the base doctrine of the pre-creation existence of spirits in heaven would be a good example. So, let me give an example and sprinkle some reasons why this early doctrine was important into the example itself.
MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS
Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :
Inasmuch as these are HISTORICAL texts one must try to read the words in the ancient context. For example when Adam's spirit (in abbaton text) is placed into his body and be thereby becomes a man, he exclaims that he is "created" into another form. In the ancient context, he is referring, NOT to his spirit (which obviously did exist since it talked and communicated and did things), but he was re-created into a MAN. Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)
The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)
In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.”
After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)
The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham : “Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)
The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).
When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.
“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)
“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)
The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)
In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)
In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits : “And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them.... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)
post two of two follows
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POST TWO OF TWO
In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked : Quote: “After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)
The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. In this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :
“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)
In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)
This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)
The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.
Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”
Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that Quote: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”
The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)
Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : “the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. [...]Speaking of those left behind who mourn it was taught “Withal, the village people weep for the departure of the king’s son from among them. But one wise man said to them: ‘Why do you weep? Was this not the king’s son, whose true place is in his father’s palace and not with you?...’ “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, ... (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)
The early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses are clear in their doctrine that the spirits of mankind existed prior to birth and part of their purpose in being sent to earth was partly educational as a preparation and learning experience that is part of the preparation to learn to live moral laws which underlie a joyful and unified existence in a heaven (as well as knowledge of the disastrous consequences of evil).
I hope it makes sense to forum readers how many early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses have consist and parallel specific base doctrines and how they can coordinate to display specific Judeo-Christian doctrines that repeat themselves in various documents separated by a great deal of time and great geological space. Such consistently repeating textual witnesses can give us insights into what early Judeo-Christian historical doctrines were over time and distance.
I hope your journeys are good.
Clear
ειδρφιακω
In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked : Quote: “After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)
The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. In this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :
“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)
In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)
This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)
The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.
Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”
Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that Quote: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.”
The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)
Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : “the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. [...]Speaking of those left behind who mourn it was taught “Withal, the village people weep for the departure of the king’s son from among them. But one wise man said to them: ‘Why do you weep? Was this not the king’s son, whose true place is in his father’s palace and not with you?...’ “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, ... (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART)
The early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses are clear in their doctrine that the spirits of mankind existed prior to birth and part of their purpose in being sent to earth was partly educational as a preparation and learning experience that is part of the preparation to learn to live moral laws which underlie a joyful and unified existence in a heaven (as well as knowledge of the disastrous consequences of evil).
I hope it makes sense to forum readers how many early Judeo-Christian textual witnesses have consist and parallel specific base doctrines and how they can coordinate to display specific Judeo-Christian doctrines that repeat themselves in various documents separated by a great deal of time and great geological space. Such consistently repeating textual witnesses can give us insights into what early Judeo-Christian historical doctrines were over time and distance.
I hope your journeys are good.
Clear
ειδρφιακω
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe he exists in legends but never as Jesus.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
I never said he was Jesus.
Muffled
Jesus in me
And yet for some like my wife, Christmas is all about Santa Claus and not about Jesus.