1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is Sola Scriptura Unbiblical?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by watrewks, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7,925
    Ratings:
    +2,121
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    No, it is the reporting of personal experience. It is not meaningful to people who don't believe that God answers prayers. For many others, it is an encouragement for their faith.
     
    #121 KenS, Sep 4, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  2. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    Well, you are very right in there being two sides to the coin, the knowledge and understanding of what is demanded and taught, the other side is living in Christ, that is, living a pure moral life in Christ, sexual moral, business moral, doing to others as you want them to do to you.Prayer is one of those things that is guided by the knowledge of who to pray to (praying to saints is a no-no); while at the same time it is a practical thing of side two of the coin. I am not a Trinitarian, so I pray to God (in worship), and pray to Christ (as my Lord and Owner, but not as my God). Prayers, of course, have flavors, types.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    If you use his death, the year 33CE, April one, a Friday, and calculate back 33.5 years, his age, the year of his birth is arrived at, circa 2BCE, around October 1, plus minus two weeks to each side to give leeway for how exactly 33.5 years he might have been. This takes into consideration that there is no year NULL.

    I am a meat and potatoes Christain, OEC, who simply goes by what the Bible internally tells me, when this is possible.
     
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,703
    Ratings:
    +5,221
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    What the age of Jesus when crucified is as hypothetical as the year of his birth. There still remains the problem of the Roman census. There is no Roman census that corresponds to the Biblical account of his birth.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    It's refreshing to read you understand where I come from even in our disagreements.

    You do talk trinitarian-like. o_O Other than language, what separates the two of you?
     
  6. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    Well, your post is very informative and contains things that could confuse some people.

    However, as I mentioned in my initial post, the internal testimony shows that the early Christians exchanged and kept each other, in other cities and countries, informed of any new material coming from the esteemed people acknowledged as elders of the Church, the 12 scattered tribes of Israel. (James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.) They assuredly kept up to date on divinely approved material that the Holy Spirit of Christ approved of.

    Having said that, it is clear that outside the generally accepted NT, that contain a specific set of authors and letters or books, there exist material that clearly might have been possible to include since such material speaks in a correct manner not contradicting anything in the NT we know. If some of this material was included by the 1st century Christians is not possible to know at the moment. If and when I read sources that some wonder if it could be included, I can usually quickly say if it could or could not be part of our Bibles. Any contradiction with known material is a death sentence to such.

    What we have - has in my opinion been provided us by the hand of God, or the hand of Christ so that we have what is needed for our faith. That there are prophecies in some of the other material that speaks of the end in a specific way which we do not have in the NT might have been nice to have, but, this is not strictly needed for our faith to be fully formed and at work to God's satisfaction. So, my Bible study turns around our God-given material. I don't study the other material in a way that keeps it at the tip of my tongue. I have read some of it, but years ago so that its impression fades in my mind. If God had wanted it to be studied as his word, he would have made sure it was included in the NT we have.
     
  7. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    Well, it is a bit funny, ironic, that I am neither Trinitarian, nor do I agree totally with the JW. I kind of stand in the middle of the two dissenting camps. I am fairly alone in my opinions many times.

    Let me explain, and I hope not blow your mind.
    John 1:1 contains more to me than most others seem to get from it. I use the NWT here:
    In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)
    ISV: Hebrews 1 3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
    ASV: Revelation of John 21:23: And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb. ​
    The above scriptures may be used to illustrate what I believe. Beginning from the bottom, if comparing God and Christ, God would be the sun and Christ the moon, size vice, spiritual vice, importance vice, etc. They are two separate beings, Christ having been begotten, only begotten, yet created.

    Christ is the Word of God since before man was created, thus it applies to the angels also. This means that the angels must go through Christ to speak to God. In Hebrews we see what I mean, Christ is the exact copy of God. I think it appropriate to say that Christ is in a sense God's avatar to all, angels and mankind.

    His function: he functioned (gender doesn't exist of body in heaven, it is a matter of function) as God's wife in that God created all things through Christ: John 1:3: Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made. ) This is why God when God created man, he created us in their image, plural, as man and woman. (Gen 1: "26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:." This is God speaking to Christ, his wife in creational matters.)

    Later Christ was sent down to earth as his son, to ransom us. Here on earth, he came as a man since he now shall function as God's king according to the promise made to King David. Thus he is 'son of God', 'son of man' priest according to king Melchizedek's manner, and king according to inheritance of King David.
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    :facepalm::cry: Ya'll just make it sooo so complicated, I tell ya. Just had to say that. I'll get back to you if I don't sleep on this tonight.
     
  9. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    That is where the fun is at times.:D
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    28,438
    Ratings:
    +13,789
    Religion:
    Germanic Folk Revival
    o_O
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    In the beginning was the word, and the word was a god? That sounds JWish. I'd say of course the Word (the dictated law of salvation) was with god because it came from god. It's the language.

    Barebones:

    God said "I will save you all humanity"
    Humanity didn't listen to him and still sinned.

    God writes "This is my promise/my word that I will send a savior for humanity"
    Humanity read what he said and still sinned.

    God said "Okay... if listening does not work and you're not able to see me as purely god without dying, I will create a human who will BE my Words I just expressed above. He is an incarnation of god's word of a savior and the word has to be with god because it wasn't christ, it was god's word. Christ is just the incarnation of that word. "He does his father's will not his own." and so forth.

    Hebrews does a better example than I could do because there are a lot of prepositions and image, likeness, mirrors, etc but not really To Be words. Puts a dent in the trinity issue. I'm learning from another conversation there are different takes on how people even define the trinity.

    "Lamp therefore is the lamb" sounds like god is shining on his son so that humanity can see. Just guessing.

    I can see that. Another look at it is Trinity just means three people working together. It doesn't explain the relationship between the three but once they are one, they are no longer a trinity. Just sayin'

    I never heard of that. The angels must go through christ. The Word is god's dictations of salvation. Jesus never took credit for his father's words. I can't speak much on angels. That's more confusing than figuring what god is, but I could have sworn angels are right where god is. People go through christ and in the name of christ because they need to be saved from their flesh/sins in order to be in union with god.

    Can an angel sin?

    All things are created through christ just means all things are created through the word of god and that word is salvation for the people. Just as the Israelites, it's a repeated theme of saving the people.

    God's wife??? o_O The Church is the first I can think of. Other than that, who is god's wife?

    That went over my head.

    That's making it way too complicated. Probably because you're bible-oriented. I wish I had the "I'm just a Bill" song to explain what I mean.

    Like. I'll use you as an example.

    Another word for word is message. I'll use that.

    God the creator has a message to humanity.
    He spoke this message to many covenants.
    The message has always been the same because it came from the creator
    On that note, the message has been with him before humanity existed
    But no one listened to god's oral messages.

    So, he said to Moses, I want you to write this message. So Moses writes and writes, and writes. He writes the salvation of god's people (not his). No prophet claimed god's message was his message.

    Later on down the line, people kept sining. So god devised a plan. He said, hey didn't listen to me when I said the Law. They didn't listen when I told Moses to write the Law. So, I am going to seen the Law-this very important highly documented salvational message as an incarnation. This message cannot be separated from me. An artist is his art just as a creator is to his message. (It's a metaphor)

    So, god did more miracles. A child born of a virgin. Three wise men. Etc. This was the Message-the incarnation of god's message of salvation. Everyone learns different ways. God must have realize we are kinesthetic learners. ;) So, the message became flesh. Remember, the message has always been there. The message and the source are inseparable. So of course the message and the source are inseparable.

    Here is the problem: Once the message was made flesh in the image of and incarnation of a human being, it is no longer the source of that message but an incarnation of that source. These are two separate things. Yes, the message and the source are one. But because the message is now flesh, as soon as it became flesh, it was no longer the source.

    It was (cough. cough.) an intermediary to the source. Humanity needed to know the message in order to know the source.

    I used message instead of word because Word is a title of the message incarnate. words are typed or written letters that each clumped together has meaning to a sentence. The Word caps is that message isn't just any ol' message, it's a proper noun.

    But it is an incarnation. In image. It is not Hinduism where the incarnation is god. In this case, the bible specifically separates the incarnation from the source by prepositions and the incarnation himself separating himself from the source. If christ feels he is not good compared to his father, why would a christian say that "they are one" means the same as they are each other?

    That doesn't make sense. That's a contradiction in terms.

    I know this is long but I have yet to figure how to explain it to where you all can see it somewhat objectively. It's like if you show someone a blue tree for thousands of pictures and then you give him a red tree and ask him, he may accidently say blue. It's not intentional. It is what it is.
     
  12. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    No, actually it is not. The WORD or Logos, is a title that indicates that this entity, the Logos, Word, is the means by which God is communicated with, forth and back. In other words, angels, men, all when speaking to God, praying to God cannot do so directly, but does it through this entity, the Logos.

    It could be that God lives, exists in a level of reality where angels and human beings cannot directly communicate with him

    I read more of what you said, later. I have to do some things now.
    ------------
    I just wrote a rather large answer to your post, after this one. I cannot see it. If you do see it, let me know, please.
     
    #132 Grandliseur, Sep 4, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    That make sense. If you're saying the Word (Christ) was with God in the beginning, I'd beg to differ. I'd say the message of god and god are two different things but, like my typing now, they are inseparable with the source of the message. Hence why "the word" became incarnated not "the spirit" or the creator.

    As for Logos, you'd have to use the English terminology. I'm not familiar with Greek to keep up with Greek definitions used in an English context. That's like my explaining to my native Spanish student the idiom it's raining cats and dogs while keeping English context and definition but using Spanish words.
     
  14. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,588
    Ratings:
    +4,216
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    What is vice?

    I think that Christ is who to go through to beseech God. People make appeals with words.
    I believe The Word is God's personal guarantee to be with us. I don't trust that it means communications.
     
  15. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,236
    Ratings:
    +576
    Religion:
    Pragmatic Christian
    I might have misspelled or misused the word, however, here is the dictionary:
    and what this includes:
    1. vice versa: "in reverse order from the way something has been stated; the otherway around: She dislikes me, and vice versa."
    and,
    vice: equivalent to vice vice3+ versā, ablative singularfeminine of versus, past participle of vertere to turn
    -------
    I am used to using vice, but perhaps I should have used 'versus.' I have to admit, at times, I do not know what language I am using.

    If and when I use things incorrectly, please let me know. I thought this use was fairly common, perhaps I am wrong. Should I have said 'knowledge wise' - feel free to assist. Due to being multilingual - confusion of terms from language to language does occur.
     
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,588
    Ratings:
    +4,216
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I thought you might be German because wise could sound like "vise" and then correctly spelled vice which to me means, "immoral or wicked behavior."

    Wise: noun
    1.
    way of proceeding or considering; manner; fashion (usually used incombination or in certain phrases):
    otherwise; in any wise; in no wise.

    God would be the sun and Christ the moon, size wise, spiritually wise, importance wise

    Wise in that context means, "like".
     
  17. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,948
    Ratings:
    +2,653
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    Yeah, but that's an ancient FBI copyright warning. It was listened to about as well as people listen now. :)

    They had no problems editing the "Old" Testament to fit their teachings.

    And I still think it's idolatry to have any authority higher than God.

    I don't consider the Trinity necessarily logical.

    Everything I post is God breathed. There, that was easy. Take my divinely inspired word for it. :)

    Must God, or is He allowed to have His own opinions?

    Tell the CSA folks.

    But we have satellites and stuff to justify what is said on tv. Prophets didn't have that.

    Noah: We've got lots of rain coming.
    People: Uh-huh. *breaks out umbrellas*
    *Many decades pass*
    Noah: Any day now.
    People: ...

    Which books did they look up? Can we verify the texts they read? It's not like they could just go to a bookstore and pick up a copy. And how many people were even literate in the first place?

    Yes, the very people Jesus says can't understand him. :)

    Speak for yourself.

    I DO feel sorry for Christians forced into idolatry because they have no relationship with God. That must be very frustrating: believing in a certain radio station but it's on AM and you can only pick up FM and you have nothing but a book talking about the existence of the first AM radio.

    The Holy Spirit can't be entangled with something as simple as historical record. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,703
    Ratings:
    +5,221
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    This, of course, is not the meaning of scripture being 'God breathed' in the Bible,

    Avoiding the issue of scripture describing when Jesus Christ was born. You need to better than this in presenting a coherent argument.
     
  19. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    5,071
    Ratings:
    +2,247
    Religion:
    Eastern Orthodox Christian
    You mean the very people Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would guide? (John 14:15-18 ; John 16:12-14) ;)
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7,925
    Ratings:
    +2,121
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    I wouldn't say it that way since we don't know exactly when Jesus was born.

    Additionally, your position is somewhat in error as it is no more a problem. I thought I would help update your sources and I quote:
     
    #140 KenS, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
Loading...