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Featured Is satan a type of animal?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by questfortruth, Jan 14, 2022.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    False. Quran never says anything about an "Old Testament".

    I presume you are looking for a brand new discussion.
     
  2. MyM

    MyM Well-Known Member

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    I don't know where you are getting your information lol seriously....muslims do not believe we came from apes. Doesn't matter if I can explain the missing link or not it doesn't matter. It's not for me to teach you what you can't even prove yourself. Where are these great transformation apes to humans....for over how many years...hmmm let's see...since mankind has been around, there hasn't been any apes turning into humans. You didn't answer me about the pigs either...they hold 84%. Why can't pigs turn into somethin close to a human then??????lol it just doesn't happen.
     
  3. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    I get my info from reality.

    A new report discussing a poll of Muslims around the globe suggests (PDF, p. 132) that "[m]any Muslims around the world believe in evolution." Specifically, the report, entitled "The World's Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society," explains, "n 13 of the 22 countries where the question was asked, at least half say humans and other living things have evolved over time.

    Polling Muslims on evolution | National Center for Science Education (ncse.ngo)

    This is thus factually and demonstrably incorrect.

    Eur.... since you just appealed to it to try and make a point, it kind of matters a lot.....................
    If you can't, and know you can't, then you are just spouting nonsense on purpose and not at all trying to have a decent and honest conversation.

    If you appeal to something to try and make a point, you need to have a basic understanding of the thing you are appealing to... How else would you know if it actually makes your point or not?

    In this case by the way, it doesn't. Which is why I asked you the question to define it and explain the point.

    You are required to be honest and upfront in your argumentation.
    You are required to meet your burden of proof when making truth-statements, instead of running away from it.

    Many different independent lines of evidence exist that all converge on this same conclusion. Most of these lines of evidence are so big that entire scientific fields are build around them.

    - the genetic line of evidence: we can determine levels of relatedness and build family trees by mapping out the dna matches through comparative genomics.

    - Comparative anatomy: we can compare anatomy of organisms and build family trees by mapping out matches again, and then cross reference these with those obtained through the genetic line

    - fossil record: we can look at which organisms appear in the record at which time and where. we can compare their anatomy to modern creatures. in some lucky cases, even some dna might be obtained. we can again cross reference this data with those from the other lines of evidence.

    - geographic distribution of species: we an look at where we find which extant organisms and cross reference that with plate tectonics and the fossil record, and the lot with the trees obtained from the other lines of evidence.

    All of it matches up. All of it converges on the same answer: common ancestry of species; evolution.

    In court, we only use the first line of evidence (genetics) when demonstrating a blood relationship (siblings, cousins, ancestry,...). And courts consider it more then enough.

    For evolution, we have that + all the rest. All of it matching up and converging on the same answer.


    Evolution has quite a strong case. Potentially the strongest case in all of science, actually.

    If that were to happen, evolution theory wouldn't be able to explain that.
    In fact, it would most likely have to be seriously revised.

    So your little "objection" here, is further evidence of how little you understand of the theory.
    Clearly you have no grasp of this subject. Why do you pretend to have good reasons to object to it?


    If that were to happen, evolution would be falsified.

    You might want to read it up a bit from a proper biology textbook.
    You are making yourself look quite bad here.
     
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  4. MyM

    MyM Well-Known Member

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    In Islam Allah says,
    “Allah has created every moving (living) creature from water” [an-Noor 24:45]

    “And We have made from water every living thing” [al-Anbiya’ 21:30].


    There are species that are never changing and still haven't changed since they came into being. It's just too many things that don't make sense about evolution. No matter how hard you try you will find fault.

    I am not claiming to be a scientist, but I can understand that the concept of apes turning into humans is a bunch of hogwash. It cannot be proven, is not being proven and hasn't been proven since humans began. Apes are still apes, they do not think like humans, they are mammals but in science-related the definition of being born and feeding off the mom, and having a vertebra means we are. Not that we came from apes prove because they are. You still didn't answer me about the pigs. The basis for the refutation of this theory is no different with regard to animals and plants. Specialists have refuted the idea of evolution in animals and plants, in ways that make this theory unfit for continued examination, let alone believing in it. You will not see so it's no use in talking. You can bash my intelligence and make fun of Islam all you want. I know I am not a species of ape or pig or whatever you say we came from. I am what my Creator says.
     
  5. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    And if by that you understand that all species poofed into existence without ancestry, then I can only inform you that your beliefs fly in the face of the evidence of reality. Meaning that your beliefs are demonstrably incorrect.

    This is not true.

    You have yet to name one that is actually valid.


    :rolleyes:

    Evolution theory explains how that occurred.
    Handwaving the evidence away, downright ignoring it, is not going to accomplish anything.

    Scientific theories are never "proven". Atomic theory isn't "proven". No theory is. Theories can only be supported by evidence. They make testable predictions that can be verified. Theories can only be supported or disproven.

    Chimps don't think like gorilla's either.
    And why would they. They are a different species.
    Off course there is overlap. We share a lot of cognitive traits with great apes off course.

    :rolleyes:

    We are vertebrates because we came from vertebrates.
    We are mammals because we came from mammals.
    We are apes because we came from apes.
    We are humans because we came from humans.



    I don't think you ever asked me anything about pigs. I think you are confusing me with another poster.
    In case I missed it, I'm sorry. Point it out or repeat the question.


    :rolleyes:

    Citation required.
    Please point me to the publication that details this refutation.
    Also, why isn't this front page news and why hasn't the person that did it received a nobel?

    (informed guess: it's some kind of conspiracy? :rolleyes: )

    Coming back to the point of the post you were replying to though......

    So did you read the article where it says that more then 50% of muslims accept evolution theory?
    What do you say about that?
     
  6. MyM

    MyM Well-Known Member

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    As for the polls, I cannot put my say in for I don't believe that we came from apes. True Muslims do not believe we came from apes.

    If evolution is always moving towards the fittest, then why do we not find the power of reasoning in many animals that are more developed and more highly evolved than others, if evolution is for the benefit of all creatures? Why did the higher primates not attain the power of reasoning as man did, for example? Donkeys, from the time when they were first known until the present, are still donkeys.

    Darwin referred to this problem in his book, but he did not answer it. Rather he commented on it in the Origin of Species (p. 412) by saying:

    No one should expect to find a specific answer to this question, especially since we know that we are unable to answer a question that is less complex than this.


    This theory cannot be proven through experimentation or observation. No human has ever observed even the slightest degree of evolution.

    At no time throughout history has humanity ever observed any living being transformed into another being through evolution, especially when there are specialized scientists who are watching for the slightest change in outward appearance or inward structure of those beings. See the book by the
    Australian Michael Denton.

    It wasn't even until the late 1800's that Darwin had this idea. It is flawed.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The Old Testament is just the English word for the Torah when apart of the Bible.

    I believe the following reference describes the Relationship to the Torah in Islam.

    Torah in Islam - Wikipedia

    The Tawrat (Arabic: توراة), also romanized as Tawrah or Taurat, is the Arabic-language name for the Torah within its context as an Islamic holy book believed by Muslims to have been given by God to the prophets and messengers amongst the Children of Israel. When referring to traditions from the Tawrat, Muslims have not only identified it with the Pentateuch, but also with the other books of the Hebrew Bible as well as with Talmudic and Midrashim writings.[1]

    Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to God] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of God, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price [i.e., worldly gain]. And whoever does not judge by what God has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

    — Quran 5:44[2]
     
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  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Terrible lack of understanding of the 'science of evolution based on self imposed ignorance and an ancient flawed religious agenda.
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Well. Not really. Not even according to the Jews.

    Anywayh the Quran does not say anything about an Old Testament. It mentioned a Torah.

    I know that as a Bahai, many make this equation. But I dont know your personal position.


    The Quran does not speak of the OT. no verse.
     
  10. Jack11

    Jack11 Member

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    Many people assume that the Torah is completely different than the Old Testament. And while they are two different things – the Torah in its entirety is found within the Old Testament.
     
  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Your splitting frog hairs. The Old Testament is simply the Torah in English. The point is the ancient mythological belief
    in angels, Gods, Council Gods, and Satan. The only difference between the Olr Testament and the Torah is language.
     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Absolutely false.
     
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Absolutely false.
     
  14. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    So in your "humble" opinion, 53% of muslims aren't "true muslim", because they don't believe as you do?


    You should really read up a bit on evolution theory. Literally every comment you make about it is drowning in ignorance and misrepresentation.

    "fit" here, refers to fit in context of the environment. "fit" does not mean "faster, smarter, bigger, stronger". Evolution is not a ladder and what works for one species in one context doesn't necessarily work for another.

    If you are a predator, having white fur will be beneficial to you when you live in a snowy environment.
    But that white fur will be a disadvantage if you live in non-snowy environments as you would stick out and potential prey would see you coming a mile away.


    Your question assumes that "the power of reasoning" is some kind of pre-set goal that creatures are supposed to achieve. This is incorrect.


    If donkeys would produce anything other then donkeys, then evolution would be falsified.
    But donkeys weren't always donkeys. Their ancestors weren't donkeys. They were mammals though.

    Again: read up. You have no understanding of this field of science at all.

    Google "observed speciation".
     
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  15. MyM

    MyM Well-Known Member

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    In Islam, you cannot be a Muslim if you don't believe Allah is the creator of all. You just can't. If you believe others are in equal standing with Allah, you cannot be a Muslim. So that's all I will say regarding that score.

    I already admitted I wasn't a scientist. But that doesn't mean I can't understand that we didn't come from apes. Based on other proofs that you do not believe in, that isn't my problem. You can criticize me all you want and bash my intelligence on account that I don't believe in your beliefs, but fact is, Darwin's theory is not proven we came from apes and scientists do agree on that. My creator tells me we are not and that is enough proof for me. :)
     
  16. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I don’t know about every Muslims, but I am talking about this, to you.

    I see two problems with your above statement:
    1. You don’t understand the biological definition and taxonomic definition of the word “ape”.
    2. And humans don’t come from apes, humans are apes...which is another thing you don’t understand about biology.

    You would understand point 2, if you can understand point 1.

    The word “ape” isn’t definition of “species” classification.

    “Apes” aren’t a species. The more scientific term for “apes” is Hominoidae (so singular word is hominoid “ape”), which is the name of “family” or more precisely “superfamily”.

    So the superfamily Hominoidae is divided into two families:
    1. The family Hylobatidae - meaning the “lesser apes” - which is more commonly referred to the family as the gibbons.
    2. The family Hominidae - meaning the “greater apes” - which there are numbers of genera and species, but in everyday words, we know them as gorillas, baboons, chimpanzees and humans.
    The words “greater” and “lesser” don’t mean one group of apes being superior over the other; no, they just mean their general size, as in larger and smaller.

    So gorillas, chimpanzees and humans are all “apes”, they all belong to the family Hominidae (greater apes) and the superfamily Hominoidae (apes).

    You are using the word “apes” as if they were species of some sort. They are not.

    “Apes” aren’t species; “apes” are colloquial term for Hominoidae (superfamily).

    Humans didn’t come from apes, humans are apes.

    Humans are not really taxonomic classification. The technical term for humans is Homo.

    Homo (humans”) isn’t a species; Homo is a genus.

    All species in the Homo genus, include the following, eg Homo erectus, Homo neanderthalensis, Homo heidelbergensis, Homo sapiens, etc. They are all “humans”.

    But just as all of the above human species are all humans, they (humans) are are all greater apes, they are all apes and they are all primates.

    Humans are also all mammals (class Mammalia), tetrapods (superclass Tetrapoda), vertebrates (subphylum Vertebra) and animals (Animalia).

    Not everyone are biologists, I am not a biologist, but over the years, I am beginning to learn more and more about biology subject, which include Evolution.

    Anyway, you are using the non-technical term ape, and you are thinking apes as in species when apes are not species.

    Biologically, humans, chimpanzees and gorillas are all apes, we have some common physical traits that we shared.

    You’ve probably heard that humans are more closely related to the chimpanzees, and that because of DNA testings.

    Some of the shared physical traits among humans and chimpanzees are the following.

    Humans and chimpanzees have degree of being bipedal, which is the abilities to walk with two hind limbs (legs). But because chimpanzees spend more times climbing trees than humans, they have longer arms, while we spend more time walking on ground, therefore we have longer legs. But is not just limbs, but due to ones spend more time walking while the others on trees, the locomotive of shoulders and pelvis have notable differences that provide efficiency depending on if they spend more times on trees or on the ground.

    Both (chimpanzees & humans) have five digits on each hand and on each feet. Both have opposable thumbs, except that a chimpanzee’s big toes are opposable, where as a human’s big toes aren’t opposable. The opposable toes give chimpanzees better abilities than humans to climb trees, more effortlessly and efficiently than humans.

    Although there are some shared traits, there are also some differences.

    But just because humans and chimpanzees have more similarities in our DNA than with other apes, it doesn’t mean humans evolved from chimpanzees. Both chimpanzees and humans have extinct common ancestors, probably the Sahelanthropus tchadensis that existed around 7 million years ago; humans and chimpanzees probably come from this species of the Sahelanthropus.

    But as I said, I am not a biologist, nor am I a zoologists, so if you want to know more, then you should ask someone else, who have more knowledge than what I possessed.
     
    #96 gnostic, Jan 17, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
  17. MyM

    MyM Well-Known Member

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    Thank you but That is your belief. It isn't mine. I don't believe we are apes. In Islam, we were not created from them, nor stemmed from them nor do we act like them. In reality, people are teaching apes how to act like us. In my belief, we are created as the best. Animals are not the best. :) We have thinking skills inbred, taught and experienced then the knowledge of becoming more and more intelligent. Whereas animals, well, they have instinctive behavior intelligence for their adaptive species. It doesn't mean that they are better than humans. In Islam, Allah says in the Quran,

    We have indeed created man in the best of moulds [​IMG]

    So, just because dna is close, so are other animals example pigs...84% from pigs they say ....I just can't believe in this theory when my God is so eloquent and beautiful in His guidance and wisdom. :)
     
  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    You're like a walking definition of closed-mindedness, tbh.

    Tnx for the exchange.
     
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    No. It's what the evidence demonstrates. That humans and chimps share a common ancestor, is a genetic fact.

    This is what you keep missing / ignoring / misunderstanding. This isn't about "beliefs". This is about facts.

    When facts contradict your beliefs, it's not the facts that are incorrect.

    In reality, we are and do.

    There are 2 reasons why you don't "believe" in this theory:
    1. You have no clue what the the theory actually says nor what the evidence is that supports it, nor are you aware of the facts and implications of genetics. Well... that, or you deliberately ignore and misrepresent it all. That would be quite dishonest (but not unheard of in creationist circles). I give you the benefit of the doubt and just blame it on good ol' ignorance. Fortunately, ignorance is easily fixed. Just study up a bit on the basics.

    2. You feel like your religion requires you to accept a certain account dogmatically. So no matter what kind of evidence is presented to you, you'll reject it at face-value... In such a case, off course no amount of evidence will ever convince you. At that point, the only thing that can get you out of the hole you dug for yourself, is you by regaining a bit of intellectual honesty and integrity. And finding the courage to face reality as it is revealed by reality itself, instead of some medieval book born out of ignorant cultures where superstition poisoned pretty much every trail of thought.
     
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  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    If you object lets refer to the Torah.The point is the ancient mythological belief
    in angels, Gods, Council Gods, and Satan is described in the Torah, . .
     
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