Is "salvation" possible under the Law?

[savagewind]

Do you actually want some proof John 14:6 really says, "ours is the way, truth and life"?

Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Matthew 25:21 His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

Matthew 24:47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

John 20:23 If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

Revelation 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations

Revelation 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers

1 Corinthians 6:2 Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

Daniel 7:18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.

John 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us

 

[MountainPine]

John 14:6 comes from the Tanakh

“יהושע said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6

What is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

“Blessed are the perfect in the way, Who walk in the Torah of יהוה!” Psalm 119:1

“Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.” Psalm 119:142

“The Torah of the wise is a fountain of life, Turning one away from the snares of death.” Proverbs 13:14

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.” Matthew 5:17-18

There you go! Scripture speaks for itself.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is something I cannot understand because, how could the dead be the way to get into heaven? Jesus has been dead for about 2000 years already. Now, to say that no one can do any thing of his own, goes against what Isaiah said that we need to set things right with God so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow through repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) And Jesus himself said in his parable of the Richman & Lazarus that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law to escape hell-fire (Luke 16:29-31) It is only obvious that it is up to us to do something to achieve salvation.

Well, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the Prophets of the Most High were prior to Jesus and got saved under the Law. That's evidence that if we obey the laws, we are all saved from the troubles as a result of transgressions against the Law.

It sure seems that in most all religions, it does matter what a person does with their life. Assuming there is a God, to get judged for what you did seems fair. But, I've heard some Christians say that even a guy like Gandhi isn't going to heaven, because doing good is never good enough... it is only belief in Jesus that takes away the penalty of sin. It is only Jesus' sacrifice that paid the penalty once and for all for sins. But, what about before Jesus?

But also, even now with Jesus, people can say they "believe" all they want and don't live their lives as if they truly believe. So it does take some action. It does take repenting. So, really, what is the difference between someone believing in God prior to Jesus, that repents of their sins and tries to obey God's Law? Like the quote from Isaiah, they are white as snow in God's eye.

So I have a big problem buying into the, I'll call it the "interpretation", of many Christians that makes Jesus the "only" way. Of course the Bible says so. But, no, the New Testament says so. The New Testament that got added on to the Bible. And was that exactly what Jesus said? Is that exactly what he meant? Or, because it was written after the fact, was it what the Christian writers wanted to say?

Since you are Jewish your opinion is very important to me, because I was presented the "gospel" without knowing anything about the Bible. I assumed I was told the truth. And because they showed me verses to back up their interpretation, I believed them. But for me, there's just too many incongruities. So what you have to say about why you don't believe in Christianity means a lot. Thanks CG

 

[CG Didymus]

To give you the big picture,

God's plan, as He gradually reveals to humans, is to build an eternity we call Heaven for His creatures such as the angels and humans living with Him forever. However God hates something which we call sin. God is said to be completely sin incompatible. Law is thus set up to address what a sin is, so that if any entities with freewill chooses to break the Law in a specified period of time then he's disqualified to enter the final Heaven. That's why there's a Final Judgment to legitimately and openly bring those qualified to Heaven. That's when the New Heaven and New earth starts to run.

However under the influence of Satan, the first lineage of humans sinned when put in Eden (a place inside God's realm). Since then humans are driven out of God's realm, living in the current planet earth where Satan is literally said to be the god of this world. When humans are no longer inside God's realm, with Satan's influence being much stronger, no human can thus enter the final heaven by abiding the Law. This point is proven (by God) so it came the story of Noah. God's purpose for humans (to live the eternal Heaven) was defeated. Humans as a whole will fail the final judgment of God's Law. Thus the existence of earth serves no purpose but a pool of sins which God hates. It's thus time to destroy this pool of sins once and for all (by water).

Satan thus triumphs as he has destroyed God's plan of bringing humans to Heaven. But it's not yet. God has Jesus Christ the savior. Through the blood of Jesus Christ God can now grant a series of covenants as a mean of salvation to humans. A covenant simply says, "since you humans can't abide by God's Law in full, you only need to abide by a set-aside set of rules (such as Mosaic Law) to a said standard, such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ. Each and every covenant serves the main purpose of identifying and thus separating the righteous from the wicked. The righteous thus will be brought to Heaven legitimately under open witnessing (of angels and saints).

Satan (and his angels) on the other hand will stress his influence, humans will thus sin further to an extent that an older covenant may fail in identifying the righteous (the harvest). Then it is time for God to upgrade His covenant to a newer one by granting more Grace, such that His Elect (the righteous) will become savable.

Romans 5:20-21 (NIV2011)
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The New Covenant brought in directly by Jesus Himself became the final covenant because it has the maximum Grace granted. Under this covenant, our salvation is measured by our faith alone. Faith in Christ becomes the only rule (unlike Mosaic Law) applied for us to be saved. You believe with Faith in a correct fashion then you will be saved (brought to the final Heaven) legitimately and openly.

Whether one can fulfill what a covenant said will be judged by Jesus Christ Himself, because all the Grace is granted under His name. His blood gives Him the right to grant the Grace to anyone He wishes though He will judge fairly and He will judge what is deep inside your heart. The angels and saints will also be the witnesses to see if you have fulfilled the covenant. As for the New Covenant, Jesus will judge if your faith qualifies you to enter the final Heaven.

If you are considered (by Jesus Christ) to fail the covenant, then you will be judged by the Law which will sentence you to death (the second death) with whatever consequences it brings.

Thanks for the reply. To keep it short, I'll address only one difficulty I have with this, Satan. When I learned the word means "the adversary", it changed things. Too much myth surrounds Satan, the devil, Lucifer and whatever other names you want to call him. Is he real? I know evil is real. There sure seems like a dark force or feeling can get in a person when they get angry and hate. But, is there a spirit being at work through out the Earth?

Can that spirit being be messing with people through out the world at the same time? Does he have some kind of sinister plan? Why is he such a small player in the Jewish Bible but huge in the Christian Bible? Was he made up to scare people into doing good? People have a hard enough time doing what is right, why would God send Satan to Earth?

And, if he was the serpent in Genesis, then he was already here before Adam and Eve sinned. How is that fair? "Paradise" wasn't so perfect then was it? Anyway, as you can see, I'm really questioning everything that I've been told by Christians. I hope you hang in there and give me some more of your thoughts, Thanks.

 

[roger1440]

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Given Jesus words (above), I would argue that Jesus presents Jesus as the only way to get into heaven. So it isn't really "many" Christians who present this as the case, but all Christians. Those who do not believe what Jesus said is true should stop calling themselves Christians.

So a person MUST believe in a specific set of books? Wow, when you take in consideration most people in the world for the last 2000 years couldn’t even read, that’s a darn tall order if you ask me. But then again we could put our trust in a particular church and hope they are explaining a specific set of books the correct way. How would anyone know what set of books or what explanation of these books?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I think it is clear to me that the Jews were to believe in God their savior. When they requested a king, it is written that to do so was to reject God so God was to lead them.

John 14:6 might mean that no one comes or goes to The Father except for the sake of Jesus.

dia: through, on account of, because of
Original Word: διά
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: dia
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')
Short Definition: through, on account of
Definition: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.


Jesus embodies all that is right and good.

I believe John 14:6 means that nobody is able to approach The God if not for goodness and righteousness.

It looks like Ego (Strong's 1473) can mean "ours" and eimi (Strong's 1510) can mean "is".

Jesus answered, "Ours is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except for the sake of me."

Me can be anyone for righteousness. Jesus is the preeminent spirit for righteousness' sake.

I can imagine that the Jesus could get trampled by people on their way to The Lord God.

John 14:6 is a warning that you will never get there that way.

My comment on this post of yours above is focused on your quote about Jesus' answer when he said, "Ours is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except for the sake of me." "Ours", that's what I want to bring your attention to. "Ours" is a reference in the plural as an identity to what belongs to the whole People Jesus was part of. The People of Israel. And Jesus was referring to his own gospel aka the Tanach as the way, the truth and the life. Jesus was a Jew and, as part of the Jewish People he was entitled to say, "No one comes to the Father except for the sake of me." Hence, his revelation in John 4:22 that salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, not from one among the Jews.

 

[savagewind]

My comment on this post of yours above is focused on your quote about Jesus' answer when he said, "Ours is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except for the sake of me." "Ours", that's what I want to bring your attention to. "Ours" is a reference in the plural as an identity to what belongs to the whole People Jesus was part of. The People of Israel. And Jesus was referring to his own gospel aka the Tanach as the way, the truth and the life. Jesus was a Jew and, as part of the Jewish People he was entitled to say, "No one comes to the Father except for the sake of me." Hence, his revelation in John 4:22 that salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, not from one among the Jews.

I agree. But I think I can see people replacing God with the Tanach. So, instead of it being people saving people, I see people trusting in a THING for salvation. The thing being The Law.

 

[psychoslice]

The story of Jesus is just that, a story, its not to be taken literally, to be saved is simply realize your true nature, which is being One with God, or One with the Cosmos which we are all One, we don't need silly guilt trips with what silly religion tells us.

 

[savagewind]

I think Jesus is a lesson which tells of the possibility of reaching the highest human potential.
The problem is the people who want to keep humankind down and slaves to their own ideas
of righteousness. It is people who have made it about power over other people.
Let's just say that exercising power over other people the Bible calls "satan".
Let's call the height of a soul's potential, "God", but there are not many gods.
The question is; does ALL of Earth's inhabitants need to reach God before there is peace on Earth?
I think not. I think the secret is that not all must be righteous for a righteous World to exist.
How so? LOVE. To be making the Earth's inhabitants under subjection is a fine balance between
power and love. Evil seems to want evil's right, so it resists love. To resist love is what causes evil
in the World. To endure in love is to become a savior. When there exists more saviors than
there are people minding their own business*, there will be Peace and prosperity.

A person who is wishing for power (and money is power) who is being made aware of subjection
will resist it and the one who makes known the secret is the antichrist. That is me.

*How does this work? It is just a well tended garden.

 

[savagewind]

Salvation to what? PEACE. The enemy of peace is autonomy.
People have made guns the ally of peace, which is, of course, ridiculous.

But is peace Biblical? Ecclesiastes 2:24

 

[Ben Avraham]

The story of Jesus is just that, a story, its not to be taken literally, to be saved is simply realize your true nature, which is being One with God, or One with the Cosmos which we are all One, we don't need silly guilt trips with what silly religion tells us.

When you say, "One with God or One with the Cosmos" what do you mean? Are you implying that one is the same as the other?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I agree. But I think I can see people replacing God with the Tanach. So, instead of it being people saving people, I see people trusting in a THING for salvation. The thing being The Law.

Let me bring to you an evidence of salvation as a result of obedience to the Law. Assuming that I am under the Law and, for that matter, I'll never find the need to appear before a Judge. Continuing with the analogy, another man breaks the Law as in "Thou shall not murder" and is forced to appear in Court and is condemned to the electric chair. Would he have scored salvation if he claimed grace before the Judge as a result of the death of Jesus on the cross? No one can agree with that question. So, I got saved as a result of my obedience of the Law and the other person got lost because he did not obey. Does this make sense in your eyes? This is not replacing God with the Tanach or the Law but obeying God through the Tanach or the Law. That's quite differently!

 

[roger1440]

My comment on this post of yours above is focused on your quote about Jesus' answer when he said, "Ours is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except for the sake of me." "Ours", that's what I want to bring your attention to. "Ours" is a reference in the plural as an identity to what belongs to the whole People Jesus was part of. The People of Israel. And Jesus was referring to his own gospel aka the Tanach as the way, the truth and the life. Jesus was a Jew and, as part of the Jewish People he was entitled to say, "No one comes to the Father except for the sake of me." Hence, his revelation in John 4:22 that salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, not from one among the Jews.

Jesus represents the regeneration of the Jewish people in the Gospel of John.

“They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the king of Israel!"” (John 12:13)

“Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” (John 3:3)

 

[Ben Avraham]

It sure seems that in most all religions, it does matter what a person does with their life. Assuming there is a God, to get judged for what you did seems fair. But, I've heard some Christians say that even a guy like Gandhi isn't going to heaven, because doing good is never good enough... it is only belief in Jesus that takes away the penalty of sin. It is only Jesus' sacrifice that paid the penalty once and for all for sins. But, what about before Jesus?

If you focus on what you have posted above, the bottom line is that one does not have to obey or do good but only to believe in Jesus to have the penalty of sin been taken away from him. That's a dangerous doctrine, to say the least. What about if the Prophets of the Most High are right to say that no one can sacrifice himself for the sins of another? (Ezekiel 18:3,20; Jeremiah
31:30) And yes, what about before Jesus? That's a good question!

But also, even now with Jesus, people can say they "believe" all they want and don't live their lives as if they truly believe. So it does take some action. It does take repenting. So, really, what is the difference between someone believing in God prior to Jesus, that repents of their sins and tries to obey God's Law? Like the quote from Isaiah, they are white as snow in God's eye.

And the Prophets were proved right. "No one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:3,20; Jeremiah 31:30)

So I have a big problem buying into the, I'll call it the "interpretation", of many Christians that makes Jesus the "only" way. Of course the Bible says so. But, no, the New Testament says so. The New Testament that got added on to the Bible. And was that exactly what Jesus said? Is that exactly what he meant? Or, because it was written after the fact, was it what the Christian writers wanted to say?

Well, Dinymus, keep going! You are on the right track. Jesus said nothing of what is written in the NT. He never even dreamed the NT would ever rise. The whole thing was fabricated between Paul and the Fathers of the Church. (II Timothy 2:8)

Since you are Jewish your opinion is very important to me, because I was presented the "gospel" without knowing anything about the Bible. I assumed I was told the truth. And because they showed me verses to back up their interpretation, I believed them. But for me, there's just too many incongruities. So what you have to say about why you don't believe in Christianity means a lot. Thanks CG

Thanks in the name of God's People. I don't believe in Christianity because of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Then again, if that is taken off the NT, there will be no
Christianity to believe in.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jesus represents the regeneration of the Jewish people in the Gospel of John.

“They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the king of Israel!"” (John 12:13)

“Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” (John 3:3)

What you have read in the gospel attributed to John, the very same thing I read in the gospel of Luke. The disciples of Jesus were acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem and the Pharisees approached Jesus in the hope to save him from being arrested and asked him to stop his disciples. Probably, Jesus was enjoying the parade and said that if he stopped them the stones would cry. (Luke 19:37-40) Soon afterwards, Jesus was arrested and taken to the cross on the charge of insurrection. Hence his verdict INRI. That's the whole truth about the reason why Jesus was crucified. Nothing to do with the Jewish authorities asking Pilate to crucify him.

 

[savagewind]

Let me bring to you an evidence of salvation as a result of obedience to the Law. Assuming that I am under the Law and, for that matter, I'll never find the need to appear before a Judge. Continuing with the analogy, another man breaks the Law as in "Thou shall not murder" and is forced to appear in Court and is condemned to the electric chair. Would he have scored salvation if he claimed grace before the Judge as a result of the death of Jesus on the cross? No one can agree with that question. So, I got saved as a result of my obedience of the Law and the other person got lost because he did not obey. Does this make sense in your eyes? This is not replacing God with the Tanach or the Law but obeying God through the Tanach or the Law. That's quite differently!

I think it isn't about saving your own buttocks.
I believe that the law is not useless but, I am certain that if everybody was subject to love, murder would be an alien concept. The Tanach is MUCH MORE than reasonable laws. Correct? Are there no laws which are a part of The Law that are unreasonable, in your opinion? I think if you say, "no" you lie. If you say, "yes", tell us what they are for, please.

 

[savagewind]

Murder is not good and the couch in which a menstruating women had sat is not good either, according to the law. I think the law might teach hate, (as in, "I hate this time of the month"), which is fine for a time. Is it not written that there is a "time for everything"? I suppose the time for unreasonable laws is over.

 

[atpollard]

So a person MUST believe in a specific set of books? Wow, when you take in consideration most people in the world for the last 2000 years couldn’t even read, that’s a darn tall order if you ask me. But then again we could put our trust in a particular church and hope they are explaining a specific set of books the correct way. How would anyone know what set of books or what explanation of these books?

Actually, no. That is not what I said.
I do, however, believe that someone who wants to honestly call themself a Christian should believe what Jesus Christ said.
Each and every person in the world is free to believe NONE of what Jesus said if they wish. They should just not call themself a CHRISTIAN.

PS. The OP was in the present tense, so unless there are lots of people several thousand years old running around, the 'last 2000 years' you mentioned was not relevent to what "most Christians" ARE claiming.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Murder is not good and the couch in which a menstruating women had sat is not good either, according to the law. I think the law might teach hate, (as in, "I hate this time of the month"), which is fine for a time. Is it not written that there is a "time for everything"? I suppose the time for unreasonable laws is over.

Now, you are talking about Jewish rituals which have nothing to do with the Gentiles. I am talking about the Decalogue where the Law of God was written upon and it applies upon both Jews and Gentiles. And that's the Law that Paul claimed we were released from with Jesus. (Romans 7:6) Completely contradicting Jesus who taught us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) There is no unreasonable law in the Decalogue but for those who prefer the Pauline policy of Replacement
Theology.

 

[savagewind]

Now, you are talking about Jewish rituals which have nothing to do with the Gentiles. I am talking about the Decalogue where the Law of God was written upon and it applies upon both Jews and Gentiles. And that's the Law that Paul claimed we were released from with Jesus. (Romans 7:6) Completely contradicting Jesus who taught us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) There is no unreasonable law in the Decalogue but for those who prefer the Pauline policy of Replacement
Theology.

WHO says the law is defined as the Decalogue?

I have always understood Jewish law means ALL the laws the Jews were given to obey.
gramma Greek for "letters". (Strong's 1121) Romans 7:6 Letters or learning written for others to obey.
It is about what they were doing to what was written as in making it more and more orders to obey.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1121.htm

I agree that there are no unreasonable laws in the Decalogue. But how can anyone even begin to imagine the Decalogue is what the NT is about?