Is Salix an Atheist?

[George-ananda]

So what do you, the fine members of RF, consider my view to be? Is Salix an atheist, a pantheist, or something else entirely? I'll answer any questions that might help you to clarify my worldview.

Do you believe in life after death? It's not clear from your write-up. If not, to me, I don't see how the OP question makes any practical or philosophical difference.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Ok, i see....so, why dont you believe a supreme creator?

As I alluded to above, I don't believe things blindly. My views are based on evidence, experience, and probability based on these.

Thats interesting. So, the universe is within Gods mind. Is it kinda like those Nasa pictures that show certain space pictures that look like eye balls? Ever see those?

However, another question, the actual God 'outside' his mind, what is he like?

You're anthropomophisizing God. I don't do that. Brahman has no mind...or eyeballs.

How would you describe peoples enecdotal experiences with "God"?

I'm not clear what you're asking me here. I didn't experience their experiences.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I don't really get what you said about the term "pantheist" (sorta) working for you but "theist" not. To me, "pantheist" just describes a type of theist, so every pantheist is also a theist.

I was just reiterating my problem with the root word (the implication of a supreme being that interacts with its creation). Yes, a pantheist is a theist. Pan meaning all-encompassing. In other words, all is God.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Where on the scale of belief do you consider yourself to be?

That's the issue I'm having. None of the statements of belief are true for me, unless you are defining 'god' as Nirguna Brahman, in which case, that would place me in gnostic theism, but I don't think that's how 'god' is intended to be defined in this chart. I think this chart more relates to deity, which Brahman is not.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Do you believe in life after death? It's not clear from your write-up. If not, to me, I don't see how the OP question makes any practical or philosophical difference.

I don't die. Maya is illusory. My body may die, but the Atman continues. I was here before I was born, and I will continue after my body and mind expire.

 

[Jollybear]

As I alluded to above, I don't believe things blindly. My views are based on evidence, experience, and probability based on these.



You're anthropomophisizing God. I don't do that. Brahman has no mind...or eyeballs.

Ok, so, what do you mean when you say this > "I'm saying the universe, as you perceive it, is illusory, a dream of 'God.'"

Dreams are in minds, yes, no?

Also, what do you mean by this > "In other words, I view God/Brahman/Absolute as pure consciousness."

Is conciousness a mind of sorts?

I'm not clear what you're asking me here. I didn't experience their experiences.

For instance, the millions of near death experiences of people testifying of experiencing "God". They describe a light at the end of a tunnel. They say the light communicates and gives peace. Stuff like that. In your view of God, is what there experiencing God or something else, perhaps a advanced being of sorts within the universe? Whats your view?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Ok, so, what do you mean when you say this > "I'm saying the universe, as you perceive it, is illusory, a dream of 'God.'"

Dreams are in minds, yes, no?

In humans, yes. In Brahman, no. Again, Brahman has no 'mind' as the human brain perceives it. Brahman is pure consciousness...the witness.

Also, what do you mean by this > "In other words, I view God/Brahman/Absolute as pure consciousness."

Is conciousness a mind of sorts?

Not in nondual philosophy. Pure consciousness is all that is left when one drops everything one is not through an analytical meditative process called neti neti (not this, not this).

For instance, the millions of near death experiences of people testifying of experiencing "God". They describe a light at the end of a tunnel. They say the light communicates and gives peace. Stuff like that. In your view of God, is what there experiencing God or something else, perhaps a advanced being of sorts within the universe? Whats your view?

Mystical experiences are interpreted by the individual having the experience. If one having the experience is deeply religious, then one might interpret such an experience as an experience of God. Conversely, an atheist who has such an experience might rationalize the experience in more secular terms.

So to answer your question, I can say what people take away from such an experience other than to say that is a profound impact on their worldview.

 

[Jollybear]

In humans, yes. In Brahman, no. Again, Brahman has no 'mind' as the human brain perceives it. Brahman is pure consciousness...the witness.



Not in nondual philosophy. Pure consciousness is all that is left when one drops everything one is not through an analytical meditative process called neti neti (not this, not this).

Do you define conciousness as self aware or awareness?

Mystical experiences are interpreted by the individual having the experience. If one having the experience is deeply religious, then one might interpret such an experience as an experience of God. Conversely, an atheist who has such an experience might rationalize the experience in more secular terms.

So to answer your question, I can say what people take away from such an experience other than to say that is a profound impact on their worldview.

Right.....but, in your view, what do you think there experiencing?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Do you define conciousness as self aware or awareness?

Self-awareness is sentience, which is not quite the same thing. Awareness would be a good definition.

Right.....but, in your view, what do you think there experiencing?

Something beyond that lies beyond the mundane perception of temporal reality.

 

[Salvador]

That's the issue I'm having. None of the statements of belief are true for me, unless you are defining 'god' as Nirguna Brahman, in which case, that would place me in gnostic theism, but I don't think that's how 'god' is intended to be defined in this chart. I think this chart more relates to deity, which Brahman is not.

God doesn't usually get well-defined. There's been thousands of gods conceived by humans, there's also many different versions/manifestations of the Biblical God. i.e. - Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, Jesus Christ. There's also many various theological viewpoints just about the attributes of the Biblical God alone. It seems to me there are as many different gods as there are human minds who are capable of imagining supernatural deities.

 

[shunyadragon]

Deist or Theist.

 

[George-ananda]

I don't die. Maya is illusory. My body may die, but the Atman continues. I was here before I was born, and I will continue after my body and mind expire.

I find that understanding not different from annihilation without any continuation of our personal personality and memories.

I believe we have an impermanent soul that continues for many lives on the astral and physical planes. We have a beneficial afterlife on the astral plane also upon physical death

Without a soul and astral body concepts, I see no difference than the personal anihilation theory for pantheistic believers.

 

[crossfire]

How does panpsychism suit you? Perhaps metaphysical idealism?

 

[LuisDantas]

So what do you, the fine members of RF, consider my view to be? Is Salix an atheist, a pantheist, or something else entirely? I'll answer any questions that might help you to clarify my worldview.

You sound pantheistic to me.

But I beg you not to lend the matter too much significance. One's stance towards god-beliefs is easily among the least significant traits that anyone can have.

And it is definitely ok if you oscillate between atheism and pantheism as well.

 

[Jollybear]

Self-awareness is sentience, which is not quite the same thing. Awareness would be a good definition.



Something beyond that lies beyond the mundane perception of temporal reality.

So, God has awareness.....awareness of? Us, the universe? Awareness that hes aware?

 

[George-ananda]

You sound pantheistic to me.

But I beg you not to lend the matter too much significance. One's stance towards god-beliefs is easily among the least significant traits that anyone can have.

And it is definitely ok if you oscillate between atheism and pantheism as well.

I agree with you in that I also don’t think the OP is asking an important question.

I think the key question is do we have a meaningful afterlife experience as ‘us’. From past conversations I know you are a ‘No’ and I am a ‘Yes’.

The beyond conception metaphysical wrangling doesn’t change anything practically or philosophicaly as far as I can see.

 

[Firemorphic]

I recognize Brahman as Absolute Reality, of which I, through the Atman, the same. However, I recognize Brahman only in It's Nirguna aspect (without qualities), and do not recognize or have the need to recognize a Saguna aspect (with qualities), so while I see the avatars/messengers/gurus/sages as enlightened beings, I do not recognize them as deities.

So essentially my view of 'God' is Nirguna Brahman, or the Absolute, which, while the observer or witness of Maya, is not an active participant or the decision maker in 'temporal' affairs. In other words, I view God/Brahman/Absolute as pure consciousness.

Judging by this and what else you've said in this thread, I'd say you're on the other side of what I am.

Practically your beliefs are the similar to my Shia beliefs here, with the first point of differentiation being that we (as a Shia) believe the absolute to be a self-revealing transcendent consciousness and not a passive one. In this sense, we are dualists rather than non-dualists (although we don't see the same kind of metaphysical split between mankind/self and God as...say..Christians tend to)
The notion of the absolute pervading within and outside of the universe definitely holds up for us too.

Do you believe that the atman becomes one with the absolute after death, or that it reincarnates? (I might have missed that). Essentially, in Islam itself, life is illusion, all comes from God and all returns to God.

 

[Jumi]

Seems like clear-cut pantheism to me.

 

[SalixIncendium]

So, God has awareness.....awareness of? Us, the universe? Awareness that hes aware?

"Awareness of" implies a dichotomy of "I/other," which is duality. I'll just stick with the definition I gave above.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Judging by this and what else you've said in this thread, I'd say you're on the other side of what I am.

Practically your beliefs are the similar to my Shia beliefs here, with the first point of differentiation being that we (as a Shia) believe the absolute to be a self-revealing transcendent consciousness and not a passive one. In this sense, we are dualists rather than non-dualists (although we don't see the same kind of metaphysical split between mankind/self and God as...say..Christians tend to)
The notion of the absolute pervading within and outside of the universe definitely holds up for us too.

Do you believe that the atman becomes one with the absolute after death, or that it reincarnates? (I might have missed that). Essentially, in Islam itself, life is illusion, all comes from God and all returns to God.

A couple of differences here...

I view the Absolute as immanent rather than trancendent. If you'll recall, I see our temporal existence (Maya) as illusory.

There is no becoming of one with the Absolute. Atman is always Brahman, as a glass of water is to the ocean.