1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is Romans 2:4 referring to Jesus?(Jesus believers only

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Desert Snake, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,592
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    God
    The theistic reference, there, is that referring to Jesus?

    Romans 2:4
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,791
    Ratings:
    +1,324
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    It refers to the father of Jesus.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,891
    Ratings:
    +712
    Religion:
    Christian
    " Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Rom 2:4

    It's fine saying it refers to the Father or the Father and the Son, more explicitly to the Father
    and the believer is changed to be more patient as well

    “And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.” 2 Thessalonians 3:5.
     
  4. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    844
    Ratings:
    +120
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Who'd of thunk it, Jesus has a God
     
  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    844
    Ratings:
    +120
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Maybe it should say: "not knowing the goodness of trinity leads to repentance"?:D
     
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,592
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    God
    Can you explain your reasoning for that interpretation?
     
  7. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,592
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    God
    Are you just interpreting those because the words are different, so you presume a differentiation? Your interpretation seems to be a 'more likely', or more emphasis, word wise?
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,791
    Ratings:
    +1,324
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    The context... and the verse itself.
    Romans 2:1-6 NWT
    1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for when you judge another, you condemn yourself, because you who judge practice the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment is in harmony with truth, against those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose, O man, that while you judge those who practice such things and yet you do them, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, because you do not know that God in his kindness is trying to lead you to repentance? 5 But according to your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment. 6 And he will pay back to each one according to his works:

    It's not an interpretation, by the way. It is what it is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,249
    Ratings:
    +445
    Religion:
    christian
    no, it is demiurge, imo
     
  10. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,592
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    God
    Actually that is an interpretation, however, noted.
     
  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,592
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    God
    Can you explain why you interpret that , that way?

    Also, can you describe 'demiurge', and it's context, to the Bible?
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    4,791
    Ratings:
    +1,324
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    In the sense of explaining, you are right.
     
  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,249
    Ratings:
    +445
    Religion:
    christian
    Paul divides all souls in two groups (1 Cor 2) Psychic - soul - natural and Pneumatic - spiritual. Psychic have no siritual undersranding it neans they do not see or worship True God , Who is Spirit, those people see demiurge (Paul also calls it Creature) as true god. In Rom. 2 Paul addressed non Spiritual people, who do not understand True God, Spiritual Father of Christ Jesus. Ref. The Demiurge in Valentinianism - Valentinus and the Valentinian Tradition
    Note that Paul was a proto - Valentinian Gnostic, not Sethian.
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,592
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    God
    Who would be, according to your configuration, the 'demiurge'? In other words, 'demiurge', isn't in the Bible, who would be the 'demiurge', in the Bible?
     
    #14 Desert Snake, Sep 19, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,980
    Ratings:
    +5,254
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    "Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, because you do not know that God in his kindness is trying to lead you to repentance?"

    Each of those things is a description of the Father, mentioned in other scripture.
     
  16. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,249
    Ratings:
    +445
    Religion:
    christian
    Demure is God that Natural, Psychic People worship, Creator God, e.g. One represented by Moses, it is what Psychic sees as God.
    12"Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."
    22"Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things." This is description of Paul's Demiurge, not real True God but representation of God by psychic mind.
    21"that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. " "Creation" of Sophia is Demiurge , God that people who are not capable understand Spirit see. It is not a Spiritual entity (as True God of Christ) but the way psychic mind create understanding of God. Resurrection of the dead is when psychic mind becomes pneumatic (1 Cor 15).
     
    #16 leov, Sep 19, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,592
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    God
    I'm not sure equating 'form god', like Jesus, is the same as weird idols or hideous creatures, however, the 'idea', might be there, albiet not directly, concerning that. Since you seemed to be saying it didn't mean Jesus, because of the demiurge? So that didn't seem totally clear. However, there is that.

    [As I do have 'form god', aspect to my beliefs, I can't agree with the generalization, you have presented.
     
    #17 Desert Snake, Sep 19, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  18. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,249
    Ratings:
    +445
    Religion:
    christian
    This the only way to understand Paul. If you have God you understand ,it is the way it suppose to be. You understand God according your spiritual level. We are on the path of evolution of consciousness .The worst thing is a dogma which does work well with evolution. Read Story of Prodigal Son carefully, it explains the map.
     
  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,592
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    God
    Now you have gone into theoretical ideas, associations, that I disagree with, so forth.
     
  20. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,249
    Ratings:
    +445
    Religion:
    christian
    I do not find it very unusual. What is your take.? I hope you understand Prodigal Son, which , I think, important to get understanding of Paul's Gnosticism.
     
Loading...