Is religion making us all stupid ?

[Scuba Pete]

Someone who relies on one book will be ignorant

How do you explain theists such as Einstein or Darwin? Who are they 'ignorant' when compared to?

 

[icehorse]

How do you explain theists such as Einstein or Darwin? Who are they 'ignorant' when compared to?

I have to say that at this point it appears you're not actually reading my posts.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I have to say that at this point it appears you're not actually reading my posts.

Well, that's a cop out. I have been reading each and everyone. Just because we might disagree doesn't make me inattentive. That's a non sequitur.

The first real problem with your contention is the premise that theists rely on only one book. What? They don't read? I'm certain that many theists read more vociferously than some atheists. Just because you want to pigeon hole them into your premise, doesn't make it true. It doesn't even make it reasonable. Again, you're not arguing facts: you're arguing emotions and bias.

 

[icehorse]

The first real problem with your contention is the premise that theists rely on only one book.

That was not my premise. I was making a statistical claim, not a 100% claim - which I think would be obvious. For you to mention Einstein and Darwin is evidence that you're not getting that I'm making a statistical claim. OF COURSE there are well read theists.

 

[icehorse]

Again, you're not arguing facts: you're arguing emotions and bias.

No, I'm not. Here's one set of facts:

New study reaffirms the link between conservative religious faith and climate change doubt

 

[Scuba Pete]

No, I'm not. Here's one set of facts:

Yeah, I would argue that it's more of a political phenomenon disguised as an element of faith. Still, that has nothing to do with IQ.

I was making a statistical claim, not a 100% claim - which I think would be obvious.

Then where are the statistics. Show me a study or two that religion makes you dumber or that atheism makes you smarter. Point in fact, the first rule of Scuba applies while I await your answer: I won't be holding my breath.

OF COURSE there are well read theists.

Sure there are... now where are those statistics you promised? You might try https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiXltT96dTRAhWFMSYKHTGBC2MQFggiMAE&url=https://data.gov.in/catalog/literacy-rate-social-groups-and-major-religious-communities&usg=AFQjCNFke0Z7QTtRlCNIqcKgJeZ-juXOTg&sig2=1ud-sUQClhH3w4yBbU5eqQ for literacy rates, but it still won't show how well read a theist is compared to an atheist. It definitely won't show that theists read only one book. Good luck on your endeavor. Some biases seem worth defending, but in reality, they just need to be discarded.

I get it. You have a lot of faith that somehow atheists are smarter and ergo superior to those idiot atheists. You don't have any proof: just a gut feeling and lots of emotions. How are you any better than a theist? This is heavy irony here and I'm kind of tripping on it.

Let me couch it a bit differently. Saying atheists are smarter than theists, is just as fallacious as saying that theists are more moral than atheists. Both are based on bias and bigotry.

 

[icehorse]

I get it. You have a lot of faith that somehow atheists are smarter and ergo superior to those idiot atheists. You don't have any proof: just a gut feeling and lots of emotions. How are you any better than a theist? This is heavy irony here and I'm kind of tripping on it.

I think I understand what you're driving at here. What I've mentioned in this thread is ignorance. I just provided a link to an article that backs up my claim on just one issue. There are other issues...

Do you think that the pinnacle of our society's education system ought to include corporal punishment? Well the religious folks in most of our country's red states think corporal punishment is state of the art. Sorry, that's just plain old ignorant.

 

[psychoslice]

I think the reason that atheist seem more intelligent is because they would be more into the science, they look outside of what religion is, where as many religious people don't look outside, and therefore they don't keep up with the latest finding, in whatever area that may be ?.,

 

[psychoslice]

I think I understand what you're driving at here. What I've mentioned in this thread is ignorance. I just provided a link to an article that backs up my claim on just one issue. There are other issues...

Do you think that the pinnacle of our society's education system ought to include corporal punishment? Well the religious folks in most of our country's red states think corporal punishment is state of the art. Sorry, that's just plain old ignorant.

What I have seen since they have dropped much of corporeal punishment is that the behavior of many have declined, there is no respect for anything but themselves.

 

[Scuba Pete]

What I've mentioned in this thread is ignorance.

The thread is about intelligence, not ignorance. Even then, people rejecting a premise based on their religion isn't even ignorance nor is it willful ignorance. They often know both sides of the issue, but due to geo political forces often disguised as religious belief, they rail against reality. You want to blame the Bible, yet those scriptures never ever say "Thou shalt not commit evolution". These creationists aren't overly committed to scripture but to wielding power. It's a territorial imperative and this is the way they are using to mark their tribe from all the others.

Do you think that the pinnacle of our society's education system ought to include corporal punishment?

I have no opinion on this. It appears that there is a huge problem with scholastic discipline. However, that's not my bailiwick and I'm not going to pretend that it is. I'm going to leave it to the pedagogues and their admins to determine what's best for them. My kids were spanked when they were small with mixed results. I think my 'dad jokes' left more of an emotional scar on my daughter than any other aspect of her childhood. My son lost his life through a drug overdose, so I could not be considered a successful parent by any metric. I do know one thing. The smartest parents don't have kids. They have all the answers to raising children until they finally have their own. Often it's only then that they realize that they are just as ignorant as the rest of us. In the same vein, the best teachers have never taught a class. They'll tell you how it should be done, but they don't really know as they've never had to do it. The best mechanics have never fixed a car. They used to tell me how to do my job all the time. I thanked them for their input, and then fixed their cars the best way I knew how.

The smartest people know that they don't, er can't know everything. Everyone has areas of ignorance. If you're honest with yourself, you know what many of those areas are. When I seek a professional's help, I try to let them do their job. If I don't like the job they do, I find another professional. That's true for chefs, doctors, barbers and everyone else.

However, the OP is about religion making us all stupid. So, just to keep things on track, so far that question has not been proven in the affirmative. Oh sure, there have been any number of emotional appeals rooted in a deep seated bias against religion. But there has been nothing substantive to indicate that becoming a theist decreases your IQ nor that becoming an atheist increases it.

 

[icehorse]

The thread is about intelligence, not ignorance.

"stupid" can refer to either. I'm focusing on ignorance.

I have no opinion on this. It appears that there is a huge problem with scholastic discipline. However, that's not my bailiwick and I'm not going to pretend that it is. I'm going to leave it to the pedagogues and their admins to determine what's best for them. My kids were spanked when they were small with mixed results

You honestly have no opinion about whether physically beating a child at school is really the best approach we have at our disposal? When DO you choose to voice an opinion?

 

[Scuba Pete]

When DO you choose to voice an opinion?

Some people post when they have something to say. Some just because they have to say something. I choose the former.

Contrary to your belief otherwise: Everyone is ignorant about many, many subjects. I doubt that I possess even a single percent of the current available knowledge in the world today. I'm sorry, that's a bit liberal. I doubt that I possess one hundredth of one percent of the current available knowledge in the world today. Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians put it best:

I don't know about too many things
I know what I know, if you know what I mean!
Do ya?​

What defines ignorance? In that respect, why give an uninformed opinion when it's obvious I need more data and even more time to think about it? Why press me to give one when I have expressed reticence at doing so? Hazarding a guess, this is another emotional issue for you. In that regard, I bet you believe that anyone with no opinion or with one different than yours will be labeled "ignorant" on the spot. Make no doubt about it. On being ignorant about corporal punishment in the schools, I am nothing less than...

Guilty!​

If you're honest with yourself, you can probably identify subjects where you are just as uninformed and rely more on emotion rather than fact. There is no dishonor in being honest about yourself. As Dirty Harry once opined: "A man's gotta know his own limitations!". OK, this is paraphrased: I'm too lazy to look it up this morning. I try to know my limitations. I often exceed my financial limitations, though I'm doing far, far better. I really try not to exceed my diving limitations as that could be deadly. Often it is, and I lost 8 friends in 2016 mostly due to them doing just that. I'm quite comfortable in not spewing my ignorance for everyone to see. You might appear to be ignorant with your silence, but open your mouth and you'll remove all doubt. So yeah, I'm not ashamed and I won't be guilted into giving you an opinion I don't possess.

So, most would label me rather intelligent and even well informed. Not just many, but a major majority of people who know me professionally or as a friend consider rather highly in both regards. Yet, I admittedly know less than one hundredth of all available information in the world today. Except for possibly yourself and a few White wingers here on RF, no one would call me an ignoramus. Damn, that's a really low bar. For the most part, the word seems to be used exclusively when someone holds a different opinion than the person using the insult. In an ironic twist, they ignorantly call others ignorant when that's not really the case. Why?

It's my humble opinion that we tend to vilify those that deign to disagree with us. Look at all the crap @psychoslice has thrown at me. Rather than discussing my assertions and other ideas on their own merits, he opted to attack me instead. Oh hey, I'm certainly tempted to respond in kind, but to what end? Am I here merely to argue perhaps to dominate? No. I'm here to grow. It's not that I'm above an insult, especially a disguised insult. I love to refer to our illegitimate POTUS as Komrade Trumpsky or even Twitler. Why? I absolutely despise what he stands for. It's one of my personal faults that I'm not going to attempt to change.

 

[icehorse]

Contrary to your belief otherwise

Watch out for strawman arguments!

Hazarding a guess, this is another emotional issue for you. In that regard, I bet you believe that anyone with no opinion or with one different than yours will be labeled "ignorant" on the spot.

Another strawman!

I really learned person might read 3000 books in her life. Yes of course, that's a tiny fraction of all that there is to know. But that learned person is far, far less ignorant than an unfortunate child who's entire education consists of memorizing the Quran in a madrasa. (BTW, there are similar such extreme cases in Christendom as well.) So now we have ends of a continuum. From one book to 3000 books. And actually, there are some people who cannot read at all.

The men who wrote Abrahamic scripture were EXTREMELY IGNORANT compared to anyone on this forum. Can you grant me that a tribal leader, 1300 years ago or 2000 years ago, living in the ME, had a microscopic worldview compared to anyone on this forum? That their knowledge of science was virtually nonexistent?

Do the degree that a modern person relies on one of those books for their education, they will be relatively ignorant compared to the well read person. And - as we've all been told a hundred times on this forum - the scripture itself can't be read parsimoniously. So that requires even more focus on one book, written by primitive, limited men.

So in the red states we see a "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality. By contrast, a high percentage of silicon valley movers and shakers are members of what's called the "Montessori Mafia". These movers and shakers (who we are relying on so that we can have this debate), were fortunate to receive truly world class educations through Montessori. (Montessori doesn't have a lock on such quality education, it's just an example.)

So in the red states we see a higher incidence of climate change denial. One state (Missouri perhaps?), famously forwarded a bill to make Pi = 3, because the fact that Pi is irrational "speaks of the devil".

Pete, once again, this is a statistical argument I'm making, of course their are exceptions, and of course ignorance is relative. But within the range of ignorant to learned, there ARE conclusions we can draw.

 

[Scuba Pete]

To summarize: you have absolutely no data or requisite logic to support your premise or the premise of the OP. You site a poor person who only reads one book. You haven't proven that they could afford any additional books. Furthermore, you have failed to show causality. Was it their religion that led to their state of poverty or simply the luck of being born poor. You have shown that you're biased... but that's about it.

Wake me when you've developed an actual logical argument with real facts to support that argument. No emotions, please: just facts and logic.

 

[psychoslice]

Don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[Segev Moran]

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Speaking as my Atheist self:

I'll state this clear: Every person that uses religion as an excuse to treat others in an abusive manner, EVEN IF THE PERSON BEING ABUSED AGREES TO THE ABUSE, is a person who needs to be stopped.

Me as a theist:

I'll state this clear: Every person that uses religion as an excuse to treat others in an abusive manner, EVEN IF THE PERSON BEING ABUSED AGREES TO THE ABUSE, is a person who needs to be stopped.

I Want to BELIEVE that every person in this forum thinks the same.

 

[Deidre]

I don't think religion makes anyone ''stupid,'' but for some people, it can cause them to stop questioning things, or use critical thinking. Religious and spiritual people often use critical thinking, but many don't.

 

[psychoslice]

Speaking as my Atheist self:

I'll state this clear: Every person that uses religion as an excuse to treat others in an abusive manner, EVEN IF THE PERSON BEING ABUSED AGREES TO THE ABUSE, is a person who needs to be stopped.

Me as a theist:

I'll state this clear: Every person that uses religion as an excuse to treat others in an abusive manner, EVEN IF THE PERSON BEING ABUSED AGREES TO THE ABUSE, is a person who needs to be stopped.

I Want to BELIEVE that every person in this forum thinks the same.

So are you telling me to stop ?.

 

[psychoslice]

Westboro baptist, need I say anymore ?.

 

[psychoslice]

I don't think religion makes anyone ''stupid,'' but for some people, it can cause them to stop questioning things, or use critical thinking. Religious and spiritual people often use critical thinking, but many don't.

I think certain scriptures if believed in and practised can certainly make one stupid