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Featured Is religion harmful?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nimos, Jan 13, 2022 at 4:20 PM.

  1. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    I am sorry that video is 1 1/2 hours long. It would have been nice for you to let us know what you saw that made an impact on you from watching it. I don't have the time to watch it nor am inclined to watch 1 1/2 hours of a person talking about being an atheist.

    I will add a couple observations about people who don't believe in God and religion in general though. In my experience people have many reasons for turning atheist and they are not all the same. Many who were once religious became irreligious and even stopped believing in God because of abuses they see in their religion, perhaps by a church leader, or the practices of the religion. The real start of people becoming irreligious really started after the First and Second World Wars, where the majority of the people fighting in the wars were in the nations of Christendom. Catholics were slaughtering Catholics, Protestants praying at their alters on either side of the war for God to help them main and slaughter their fellow Protestants. The common man who was sent to war and saw the horrors of it and how their religions egged them on and supported the war efforts on either side returned disillusioned with religion, and many fell away from the Churches of Christendom, and sadly many from God and believing in God.

    My grandparents were among those but both of them after WWII, came home and found what they were looking for among Jehovah's Witnesses who refused to pick up arms and fight on either side. They were among the first, and the severest persecuted by Hitler in the concentration camps, second only to the Jews. In the United States they were tarred and feathered thrown in prison, and some murdered for the same.

    But this should not surprise us. Jesus said that many people would come in his name but that when he returned he will tell them that he never knew them and called them "workers of lawlessness." And one of the signs of the last days found in 2 Timothy 3:1-6 is that people would have an appearance of godliness, but they would prove false to its power.

    The Bible indicates that all of the plethora of religions around the world are in the control of Satan the Devil, mankind's enemy. And he has used it to mislead people away from God. In fact it says he uses religion to blind the minds of the unbelievers so that the good news of Jesus Christ may not shine through, and they be saved. And it also says in very stark terms that God holds false religion around the world responsible for the blood of everyone ever slaughtered on earth. That is a huge, a tremendous, amount of blood-guilt.

    So is religion a force for good? History has shown that it has been used by power-hungry leaders to manipulate and control the populaces. And when it becomes inconvenient for those in power all to often it is persecuted.

    Who really created religion to begin with? In the beginning their was only the one pure worship of Jehovah God. It was Satan the Devil that introduced religion into the world when he had Adam and Eve turn away from God and serve him and since then religion has always been a tool of Satan to blind and mislead mankind away from God.

    There has always and will always be only one pure worship of Jehovah God. Shem, and his father Noah had it. Abraham had it. The nation of Israel had it up until they rejected the Messiah and had the Romans put the son of God to death. After that the first century Christian congregation had pure worship of the true God Jehovah. But as Jesus foretold, wolves in sheep clothing entered into the congregation, and as others in the Bible foretold by the 3rd century Christianity had completely apostatized, turned away from the truth. And it has only been until the last days, especially since 1919 that true religion, that is, pure worship of Jehovah God, has again been established among Jehovah's people, Jehovah's Witnesses. And many people like my grandparents after the war after seeing the difference between what a real Christian is and a "Christian" in name only, have come to serve Jehovah God in these last days. True religion is a force for good. It has God's blessing and it is a spiritual paradise today in this world wherein God's people have spiritual prosperity and rich blessings. They have spiritual insight, they know what is going to happen in the near future, they have peace and love and harmony among each other, they know the meaning to life, they know the universal issues at play, why they are persecuted, and have a special relationship with God. Although he is good towards all both good and wicked people, he gives special loyal love to his servants, including a clean conscious, forgiveness of sins, and an everlasting hope which no one can take away from them.
     
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  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Taking an experience and blaming it on religion is like taking a dead Japanese from Hiroshima and blaming it on science. Its absurd.

    I know this atheist experience channel. Listen to that guy. He says that "some atheists prayed for that sick guy recover because they like to call and argue with him". Not because of anything else or someone empathised with him and his illness. No no. Its only because they want to "call and argue with him and because of that they dont want him taken out".

    Amazing isn't it? No true scotsman fallacy. Is that a problem with atheism or with this channel?
     
  3. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    Why is religion not okay, exactly why? At some point you have to assume the burden of proof, for your own unsupported claims.
     
  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Is religion harmful? Not necessarily ─ a lot of good things may come from religion ─ but sometimes it is.

    Its vices may include ─

    Teaching children that they're born sinful and must be saved; and many similar manipulations using guilt.

    Encouraging division from and exclusion of holders of other beliefs.

    Encouraging bigotry and displays of piety for their own sake.

    Dislike or outright hatred of particular groups.

    Threatening followers with eternal punishments if they don't kiss the ... of the church's authorities.

    Approving and endorsing crimes against people they don't like.

    Hiding and denying the crimes of their professionals and other followers.

    And so on.
     
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  5. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    I assume you haven't watched a lot their shows which is fine.

    The sick guy calling in is one of hosts called Matt Dillahunty who is very often on it having discussions with people and is also very popular amongst the believers that like to discuss with him as well. Knowing that, one would be aware why they say that and that it is meant as a joke not to offend anyone. But I could see how that could be misunderstood as something else.
     
    #25 Nimos, Jan 14, 2022 at 2:26 AM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022 at 2:33 AM
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I cant say "a lot". Sure.

    Yeah but he was still bigoted to think all theists who prayed for this guys recovery had a ulterior motive. ;) I know its a joke, but it was still a no true scotsman fallacy. Nicely put to make some of his audience smile.
     
  7. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    No, I don't have to listen to the podcast.
    Now for religion as religion to be harmful you must isolate religion as a sufficient category. It means that there must something specific in religion that in fact is not a variant of general human behavior. It is not enough that it is a variant. It has to be generally unique.
    I have never come across that.
    Religion as per methodological naturalism is a standard human behavior and indeed if you look closer it is tied to this general fact.
    You don't have read this link.
    What is a naturalistic fallacy? The Ethics Centre Article
    So that is the is-ought problem of objective facts and subjective morality or if you like in scientific terms that evolution is tied to the replication of the fittest gene and takes place in part within our species, because we actually don't survive as a species. We survive as enough individuals to reproduce and that doesn't require all to reproduce, then you have solved the problem of subjective morality as it is a consequence of biology. And thus we won't be different, because we would be in effect the Borg.

    So that is the joke of being a naturalist. There is no objective salvation in biology, because it makes us subjective and intersubjective as tribal. You need an universal value system and then enforce it. That has a name, it is called religion. If you read some academic studies of what religion actually is, you could learn that.

    Yes, I am not nice. But if you want to play evidence, reason, logic and all that jazz, learn to do it.
     
  8. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this if it is not measured against anything. Using the example from the article you posted.

    1. It is true that smoking is harmful to your health.
    2. Therefore, you ought not to smoke.
    But if you measure against what is considered "healthy", and we define that as something that doesn't cause physical harm to the body and we agree that is good. Then it is not a fallacy, because it is evidently healthier for one's body to not smoke than it is to do it. I agree, if one simply draw the conclusion that because smoking isn't natural then it must be bad, then that is wrong.

    Solve what problem with subjective morality?

    How did you reach the conclusion that you need religion to enforce anything?
     
  9. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Probably should have done that or made it more clear that it was just the one caller and not the whole podcast.

    Told shortly as I remember it.

    Its a women (27 years old) which have been diagnosed with some sort of muscle disease, not sure what it is called, she mentions it, but I don't know what it is. Anyway the disease slowly makes her brain unable to communicate with her body, which obviously causes a lot of issues, not only with control, but also that she have problems sleeping because she occasionally stop breathing etc.

    She were raised as part of the church of Christ, I believe it is, which is following Christianity, but apparently it is a bit more extreme than normally. Meaning that women are not allowed to laugh in church or even speak, and they have to wear certain clothing etc.

    Anyway, her family follows this and given her disease the topic of death have been discussed, I don't know if that is a unavoidable thing with this disease or there is medication or procedure to deal with it. Her parents ain't wealthy and she just lost her job and health insurance as a result. She has a close and good relationship with her mother, and have gotten counselling support from one of the organizations or what to call it, that helps people recover from religion, because despite being an atheist, she still suffers from the effect of believing in demons and what other nonsense she had been told as a child. However her mother obviously don't agree with her being an atheists or would like her to be a Christian and tells her that she should just read the bible more and pray etc. Which she apparently told her that she had done countless of times and that it was what made her an atheist.

    Her father (stepdad) have shunt her, because she is an atheist and apparently she only have her mother left as I understand that the rest of her family or her stepdads family either have no contact with her or won't because she is an atheist. She is obviously pretty desperate, as she from what I can understand and as it is common in these religious groups is to avoid contact with atheists. And she as she said, don't want to end up as one of those that consider suicide as the only option.

    (This is how well I can remember the what she told, might have missed out some details.)

    So, basically you have a person here, which are not convinced or believe the same as the rest of her family and as a result this is how one is treated, a girl already acknowledged that she is an atheist, but still has to deal with the religious brainwashing in regards to demons and what not. This in my opinion is a direct result of religious nonsense. Keep in mind that im not saying that all religions or religious teachings are like this!!!

    You mentioned JWs, which I have discussed a lot with. Shunning is horrible in this religion, I remember reading how parents should treat their kids if they were under 18, that they should not be allowed to participate with the rest of the family in certain events and should be isolated. This sort of behavior should be punishable as child abuse. I in general like JWs, they are very friendly etc. but some of the things they do and support is outright sickening in my opinion.
     
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  10. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    No, I don't believe that religions are necessarily harmful, although the monotheistic ones perhaps are more likely to be so when their adherents might be so devoted as to become more alienated from other beliefs or from those with no such beliefs. Plus of course, whatever dogmas and doctrines that might harm others when having no such beliefs would probably not do so. As I seem to mention a lot, it is more down to the default position, and often it is religions that alter such so as to cause divisions and/or conflict.

    I did watch the section from Aidan and can see how awful her situation is - has become an atheist and is terminally ill (at age 27) and seemingly willing to end her life if and when such becomes too painful, but where most around her are very religious and might view this as being quite terrible - besides her atheism which they cannot accept.

    Those without any religion might just see her poor situation, sympathise, and try to make her life as comfortable as possible given her circumstances - and probably accepting her wish to end her life if she so wanted. These are the ones with true compassion.
     
    #30 Mock Turtle, Jan 14, 2022 at 5:32 AM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022 at 8:01 AM
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  11. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    Thank you for taking the time for explaining what that podcast was about. I can see how a debilitating illness can make a person bitter and turn on God, if not giving up a belief in him. It is true, it is not enough just to read the Bible. It is a very long book and some of it is very hard to understand. It would be good if she studied the Bible with someone who understood it. For example in it we are given the reason why humankind is in the fallen sinful condition we are in which with it brings sickness and death to every single person alive. But God has promised to undo the effects of the first human couples decision to abuse their freewill and rebel against his good will, and thus pass the effects of that sin on to all their progeny afterwards, of which we are all included.

    There is a time in the very near future when Jesus' prayer will be accomplished and God's kingdom will come to earth and his will will be done upon it as it has in heaven. During that time the Bible promises that the effects of the Messianic rule will benefit all humankind, and he will rid the earth of all sickness and pain and sorrow and death will be no more, and he will raise the dead back to life. That wonderful promise can be found at Revelation 21:1-4.

    Here is also a very comforting music video, though short that depicts what it may be like. I like this video because it is so short and yet so succinct. I shared it with the granddaughter of a man with Alzheimer's I take care of. She lost both her mother and grandmother in a period of a few months. She said that no one had given her solace and comfort and she had felt neglected and forlorn. But the Bible message of comfort I shared with her really lifted her spirits, and she even said that her eyes were being opened to the real truth of what the Bible teaches, even though she has been in a nondenominational Church all her life, she said she is finding out there are promises in the Bible she never knew about which makes her heart happy and rejoice, and is drawing her closer to the real and living God Jehovah who is a happy God and wants us all to rejoice, even in our trials and tribulations. For he comforts us in all our triubulations so that we may be able to comfort others in their tribulations.

    Oh here is the link to the music video:

    https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/pub-osg_73_VIDEO
     
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  12. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    To the dumbest, the world is smarter. To the smartest, the world is dumber. But, what if the right answer is not what the smartest or the dumbest would think of?

    Lets take the issue of Global Warming, and the creation of a Volcanic mirror to stop it. We're supposed to be the smartest creatures on the planet, but we have added to the misery far more than any other animal. We knew that fossil fuels were adding to the CO2 (greenhouse gas), and that was allowing high frequency light from the sun to enter, hit the earth (thereby changing to a lower frequency), and getting trapped inside the atmosphere by CO2 (which blocks lower frequency light). We know, now that the pole's albedo (reflectivity) will get smaller as the poles shrink. We know that the ocean contains a great deal of CO2 at great depths, where the temperature is cold, but if the ocean heats slightly, that CO2 will be suddenly released, and the greenhouse effect will be far worse.

    With all that we know about Global Warming, we still have deniers, those who worship oil mammon over God's environment. We still drill offshore, frack near homes, and burn coal without proper polution controls (and technology, as Trump pointed out, now has the ability to make clean burning coal plants). It is a matter of spending the money to fix the problems....but we're tightwads.

    It is too late to stop Global Warming to save species (including our own), by conventional means (that is....changing light bulbs to LEDs instead of inefficient incandescents, and recycling, and making electric cars, and getting rid of polluting power stations, in lieu of lets say solar plants.

    So how do we stop Global Warming? When Pinatubo blew, it set back global warming by about a year. If we emulate a supervolcano eruption, by spewing the same chemicals high into the atmosphere, in theory, we could do it. We don't have to blast half a mountain into the atmosphere (the dirt does very little). But the ash blocks the sun, and the sulphuric acid aerosols would fix global warming.
     
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  13. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    The "Cancel Culture" claims that falsehoods on the internet are dangerous, and must be removed. We are currently in a Covid pandemic, and false info could mislead people into not getting a vaccine (or getting a dangerous or useless vaccine). So, it is deemed necessary to take messages off of the internet.

    When we start asking questions "Is religion dangerous?" We threaten the First Amendment right of freedom of religion, and First Amendment right to freedom of the press, and First Amendment right of freedom of speech.

    If we are not free to write, or read, or assemble in groups, we would have great difficulty in practicing our religions.

    I have a friend who posted on the internet a picture of a pretty painting of a phony blue colored owl, and she had her post removed because there are no blue owls.

    Lets say you want to post a picture of a puppy.....prove that it is a puppy and not a kitten. Does it matter if everyone can clearly see that it is a puppy? Should all pictures be banned by the Cancel Culture?

    Lets say that you want to post a religious statement on the internet, would you have to prove that you are you? If you cannot, should all of your religious posts be removed by the Cancel Culture?

    Senator Joe McCarthy (founder of McCarthyism) aggressively sought out Communists in the 1950's. Famous actors (example, future president Ronald Reagan, Lucy Ball, et al) were accused of Communism, and they faced prison sentences, and many had their acting careers smashed.

    Communism is dictatorship (among other things). This is why the US objected to Communism. Yet, aggressively going after Communists using McCarthyism establishes another type of dictatorship. McCarthyism is just as bad as the Communism that it fights.

    Free speech allows everyone to object to injustices. Germans could have spoken against Nazis (if they knew that Jews were being murdered). Even with free speech, it is difficult to overcome the mob mentality (millions of Germans cheering Hitler).

    The Cancel Culture even forced President Donald Trump off of the internet (Facebook, Twitter, etc). They felt that Trump incited rioters who invaded congress. Also, they felt that Trump was an idiot who spread false info about injecting bleach into our veins to fight Covid, or use agents that could cure bacteria (but not viruses) to cure Covid.

    At the beginning of the Covid pandemic, Fauci said "don't wear a mask" (the idea was that viruses are so small that they could slip through). So, anyone who said that viruses were carried by droplets of spit, and spread by sneezes of the sick, would be banned (and were banned) from the internet for suggesting that masks could help.
     
    #33 Clara Tea, Jan 14, 2022 at 2:21 PM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022 at 2:29 PM
  14. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Just to avoid confusion.

    She didn't give up her belief due to the sickness or feeling unfair treated by God etc., at least that is not the impression I got. The sickness is "only" relevant in regard to the topic of death and her relationship with her mother, which obviously want her to go to heaven or be saved and is why she called in to the show to get some help to how she should deal with that situation.

    The illness is bad, but is as such not relevant to my point at all, its more about how she is being treated for not sharing the same believes as the rest.

    But should we bring the illness into it, I do not find your reason especially attractive, meaning that to me it only shows what kind of ******* God really is. I have mentioned it before and will do it again.

    According to the story of Adam and Eve, God made them without the ability to know the difference between good and equal, which is the same as to say they didn't know right from wrong. God didn't warn them about Satan, he didn't even protect them against him. Given what God is said to be able to, it would be equal to a parent watching their child heading for the burning hot stove and just standing there and looking at it. When the child finally gets burned, not only does the parent feel no guilt, it punish the kid for doing it, but not only that, it punish the stove for being hot and decide to punish all children for eternity. Eventually the parent think that it might have been a bit to much, but in instead of correcting the mistake or apologize for it, it gets a new kid, which is sacrifice and claim that now everything is fine for the huge mistake the first kid did, when it were so stupid to not know that a burning oven which it didn't know what were would burn it.

    God screwed over Adam and Eve big time and he ought to apologize and ask for forgiveness from all humans for what he did.

    I fully understand the appeal and message of hope that people get from the bible and the believe in God/Jesus etc. But to me this is completely backwards thinking.

    1. God hasn't explained why anyone need to be saved in the first place?
    2. He hasn't explained why only certain people are saved?
    3. He hasn't explained why humans have to suffer in the first place?
    4. He hasn't explained why animals need to suffer?
    5. He hasn't explained why anyone should worship him or why a God with such ability think that is important?
    6. He hasn't explained why homosexuality's is wrong or why it is even possible in the first place, if he doesn't like it?
    And the list goes on..

    If his excuse is truly that he feels that Adam and Eve did something wrong, when he knew they would do it and didn't know better and chose to do nothing about it, and that somehow offended him that much. Then screw him, he is not worthy of anything.

    The reason it is backwards, it like someone thanking God from not dying in a car crash, rather than asking why God allowed them to be in the car crash in the first place.
     
  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Definitely we would indeed be better off without religion, if they become harmful.

    Regards Tony
     
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  16. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    I agree, humans are stupid as a species or what to say. The problem with feeling the atmosphere with stuff as I understand it, is that it makes it equally difficult for heat to escape, so even though more sunlight might be reflected, it will also be more difficult to get rid of the "heat".

    (However not 100% sure if I remember that correctly or my explanation is all that good :D )
     
  17. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    There are answers to all those questions and all your doubts and more. You just have to do a little digging. I actually could very simply show you right here the answers. That is the amazing thing about Bible truth. It is amazingly simple. And yet only appeals to those whom Jehovah draws. When it comes to the living God nothing really matters accept the right heart condition.
     
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  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Religions are harmful because God has not explained some things?
     
  19. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    I would be very interested in that. So please do if you feel like doing it.
     
  20. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    No :)
     
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