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Is religion a man-made insitution?

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Master Vigil said:
I think the most convincing evidence for it to be man-made is the natural progression the religions take through time. It changes AS our society changes. It changes with us. How could this be? Because we change it. And we created it.
I'm not following why change indicates that it's man made. :confused:
Can you clarify please.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
]You are appointed by god to be a member of God's priesthood
LOL

So when certain priests turn out to molest children, what does this mean, that god misjudged ;)

How are you going to answer that one :cool:

Your past experiences are no excuse for what you're doing now. If a mass murderer insists on blaming his father for his murdering, then he has not truely repented.
Geez, I said it was a subconscious issue. Do you know what that means? It means that we are not are aware of it, but yet it is affecting us and our behaviour.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Suraj said:
LOL

So when certain priests turn out to molest children, what does this mean, that god misjudged ;)
I'm assuming you're refferring to catholic priests? I'm sorry, but I don't think those guys were a part of god's priesthood. I believe my church is the only one that can claim that their priests are god's priests.

Seriously, when did you decided I was catholic?

Suraj said:
Geez, I said it was a subconscious issue. Do you know what that means? It means that we are not are aware of it, but yet it is affecting us and our behaviour.
Yes, I know what that means. I'm saying though, that people can change, if they really want to. If they're unrepentent, though, they'll probably just continue to do the same things, and blame it on their subconcious.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
I'm assuming you're refferring to catholic priests? I'm sorry, but I don't think those guys were a part of god's priesthood
I like the way you displaced the blame all onto the Catholics. But, I am really sorry to inform you, bad preists can be found in your denomination as well:

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/priest_sexual_abuse_cases.htm
The Catholic priesthood is not the only institution that has been hit with scandal. In 2001, I heard the Evangelical radio show "Focus on the Family", hosted by psychologist and author Dr. James Dobson, discuss a crisis among Pastors of non-Catholic churches. They reported that 21% of Evangelical/Protestant pastors had had inappropriate sexual contact with members of their congregations. Sixty percent (60%) of Evangelical pastors, most of whom are married, have a problem with pornography. In a 1984 study, 76% of pastors knew of another Evangelical pastor who had sexual intercourse with a parishioner. A list of non-Catholic ministers charged in court with abuse is here. In this post Freudian world, sex scandal has hit many major institutions including, presidencies, public schools, and minor league sports. God save us.

The incidence of abuse by teachers is even more staggering, as a 1988 study reported in The Handbook on Sexual Abuse of Children reveals. It reported that "One in four girls, and one in six boys, is sexually abused [by a teacher] by age 18." A 1991 study revealed that "17.7 percent of males who graduated from high school, and 82.2 percent of females, reported sexual harassment by faculty or staff during their years in school. Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher,"

A survey by the Washington Post found that "Over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse." ...Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that '80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children,'" the report continues, underscoring the fact that the ordination of priests with homosexual tendencies may be the real problem. ... In 2002, Christian Ministry Resources [an Evangelical Legal Service] reported on national surveys they conducted which concluded that "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant." Lifesite News, Feb 6 2004


Yes, I know what that means. I'm saying though, that people can change, if they really want to. If they're unrepentent, though, they'll probably just continue to do the same things, and blame it on their subconcious.
It is their subconscious that is causing them to act in that way anyway. A mass-murderer, only becomes like that, because of his history and conditioning. The conscious mind can only handle a handful of information at any one time, everything else is subconscious and unconscious.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
I couldn't find any from my denomination on that list.

It is not their subconcious causing them to act that way. It may be their subconcious that makes them feel like they should act that way, but they are the ones actually choosing to do it. If they were truely repentent of their wrongdoings, they could fight those urges.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Aqualung,

This is what I meant earlier about society giving these "god-men" divine licence. The truth is all religions have their bad apples, and that is proof enough for any reasonable person that any religion is man-made.

You're are incorrect to believe that these men have been appointed by god. These men have been appointed by men of the Church.

As for the subconscious mind, why somebody would act as they are today, is because of their conditioning. But, what they do today, is a conscious act. Oh, and repenting does not work. Like many things in the bible, it is unscientific.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Suraj said:
Aqualung,

This is what I meant earlier about society giving these "god-men" divine licence. The truth is all religions have their bad apples, and that is proof enough for any reasonable person that any religion is man-made.

You're extremely silly and naive to believe that these men have been appointed by god. These men have been appointed by men of the Church.

As for the subconscious mind, why somebody would act as they are today, is because of their conditioning. But, what they do today, is a conscious act. Oh, and repenting does not work. Like many things in the bible, it is unscientific.
Do you have any concept of the LDS system of priesthood? It certainly seems that you don't.

Are you christian or jewish, or are you arguing this from a different point of view?

How can you possibly say that that is "proof enough" for any "reasonable" person?
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
LOL,

I don't care what kind of Christian you are, and what religion you belong to. I know, without a reason of doubt, that the priesthood of any religion are appointed by men.

You are not going to convince anyone here, but a few that your religon/denomination is excepted from this very obvious truth.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Suraj said:
I don't care what kind of Christian you are,
Well, you ought to. It would really help you make coherent, logical, useful, and appropriate posts.

Suraj said:
I know, without a reason of doubt, that the priesthood of any religion are appointed by men.
Is that because you don't believe in God? Seriously, I need to know. I don't want to waste even more of my time trying to debate whether or not this is a god-made religion if you don't even believe in God.

Suraj said:
You are not going to convince anyone here, but the extremely the gullible, that your religon/denomination is excepted from this very obvious truth.
I'm not trying to convince anybody. I just like debating.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
My religion has no clergy. It would seem to avoid a certain amount of acrimony on this topic.

Regards, Scott
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
coherent, logical, useful, and appropriate posts.
You should listen to yourself.

Is that because you don't believe in God? Seriously, I need to know. I don't want to waste even more of my time trying to debate whether or not this is a god-made religion if you don't even believe in God.
No, I do believe in god. That has got nothing to do with accepting the logical truth that the preisthood are appointed by men. Just because I believe in god, does not mean I am going to accept that the men of Church, or the Qazis of the Mosque, or the Brahmins or Pujaris of the Temples, or the Monks of Buddhist Monestaries have been appointed by god.

No silly, they have been appointed by men. If you went to a Church, with the desire to be a priest, they wouldn't just stand you at the altar and make you give sermons. You have to go through a man-made system. If you want to be anything higher, like say a Bishop, you need to be extremely qualified and have climbed the Church hierarchy.

Let me make this very clear, you are not sent to god to get approval :D

It's like any other man-made system. If I wanted to be a psychologist, I would first have to obtain degree in psychology, and then a post graduate, then apply for a vacany and go through an interview process. Likewise, not every Tom, Dick and Harry is appointed by the Church. They have to be SELECTED-- by men of the Church.

If a priest wants to peform something, like say an Exorcism, it first must be sanctioned by the Church - by the people higher up in the Church hierarchy. It is no doubt a man-made system.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Suraj said:
That has got nothing to do with accepting the logical truth that the preisthood are appointed by men.
Well, not in this case, I guess, but it could be very important.

Suraj said:
If you went to a Church, with the desire to be a priest,
I couldn't be a priest anyway.

Suraj said:
they wouldn't just stand you at the altar and make you give sermons.
We're talking about priests, not preachers.

Suraj said:
You have to go through a man-made system. If you want to be anything higher, like say a Bishop, you need to be extremely qualified and have climbed the Church hierarchy.
Actually, for our church to elect bishops, they just pray about it.

Let me make this very clear, you are not sent to god to get approval :D

Suraj said:
Likewise, not every Tom, Dick and Harry is appointed by the Church.
Actually, almost every tom dick and harrry in the church is a priest.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Suraj said:
No silly, they have been appointed by men. If you went to a Church, with the desire to be a priest, they wouldn't just stand you at the altar and make you give sermons. You have to go through a man-made system. If you want to be anything higher, like say a Bishop, you need to be extremely qualified and have climbed the Church hierarchy.
Suraj,

You obviously know next to nothing about Aqualung's Church. You keep insisting on telling her how everything is done in "the Church" without having so much as a clue what you're talking about. I'm amazed that you would consider yourself such an authority on something so far beyond you.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
I have a question: If one believes their religion to be given from a divine source, then don't they have to also accept other religion's claims that believe the same thing? I mean, how can you believe one claim and not another just because it's not your religion?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Maize said:
I have a question: If one believes their religion to be given from a divine source, then don't they have to also accept other religion's claims that believe the same thing? I mean, how can you believe one claim and not another just because it's not your religion?
It is our understanding that the divine inscribed to man's heart an inclination toward good. This is what we call natural law. This is why in our opinion you see most every society forming together toward some form of order and trying to reach "good" and also trying to seek help from "something" above themselves. This is human nature. Not to do it is actually more odd if you look at human history. That is why the RC doesn't reject other religious views/beliefs because in essense the source of good is one divine being. What they object to is ideals that are not in line with the Divine being. That make sense?
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Alright, I'll humble myself, and accept that I don't know anything about the LDS Church. I know only about the Catholic, Protestant and Baptist Church.

So how does the LDS Church function and how is the Preisthood selected?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Maize said:
I have a question: If one believes their religion to be given from a divine source, then don't they have to also accept other religion's claims that believe the same thing? I mean, how can you believe one claim and not another just because it's not your religion?
That's the reason. Because it's not my religion. It's like, if I say that popcorn is the best food around, do I have to accept your claims that you think it's actually Cheese-Nips? No, because I think you're wrong. I certainly have no right to insist that you start thinking popcorn is the best, but that's a totally different thing.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Aqualung said:
That's the reason. Because it's not my religion. It's like, if I say that popcorn is the best food around, do I have to accept your claims that you think it's actually Cheese-Nips? No, because I think you're wrong. I certainly have no right to insist that you start thinking popcorn is the best, but that's a totally different thing.
At least you realize that it's only your opinion, and not in any way factual. Right? To say that the best food is popcorn, does NOT make popcorn the best food. Just saying saying your religion is the only true religion, does NOT make it the only true religion. You don't have to accept that the other claims are right, but you do have to accept that your's MAY be wrong.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Aqualung said:
That's the reason. Because it's not my religion. It's like, if I say that popcorn is the best food around, do I have to accept your claims that you think it's actually Cheese-Nips? No, because I think you're wrong. I certainly have no right to insist that you start thinking popcorn is the best, but that's a totally different thing.
But can you accept the other person's belief in their claim as valid for them?
 

Atheist_Dave

*Foxy Lady*
This is why religion is so useless in society today, "I am right and you are wrong, my book is true". The problem is that someone else is just as faithful as you but believes something completely different, grrr it makes me mad :p

Peace x
 
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