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Is race a choice?

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Eh. So they're just using different definitions of race. It doesn't really mattrer what the Census Bereau defines it as. It matters what it really is.

Less prominent in this debate has been a discussion of
what is meant by racial groups and whether such groups
are, in fact, discrete, measurable, and scientifically meaningful.
The consensus among most scholars in fields such
as evolutionary biology, anthropology, and other disciplines
is that racial distinctions fail on all three counts—
that is, they are not genetically discrete, are not reliably
measured, and are not scientifically meaningful.

Race as Biology Is Fiction, Racism as a Social Problem Is Real
 

Fluffy

A fool
For those who feel that race is biologically determined, list the races and list the phenotypes (or genotypes) that a person must have in order to be a member of that race.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
So where does dark skin and light skin come from? What about hair color? What about Eye color? Height, etc? THose are part of what we call race. Those are genetic traits inherited from our parents. I am what could be considered caucasian. My fiancee is Filipina. When we have children they will have lighter dark skin(or darker light skin depending on your view). They will probably also have dark hair and brown eyes. Those racial traits will come from the genetics of their parents. I don't see how anyone can deny that these traits come from genetics.
 

kai

ragamuffin
So where does dark skin and light skin come from? What about hair color? What about Eye color? Height, etc? THose are part of what we call race. Those are genetic traits inherited from our parents. I am what could be considered caucasian. My fiancee is Filipina. When we have children they will have lighter dark skin(or darker light skin depending on your view). They will probably also have dark hair and brown eyes. Those racial traits will come from the genetics of their parents. I don't see how anyone can deny that these traits come from genetics.


maybe we are all the same race with different colour skins and hair and eyes, the human race! how about that, its not a new concept is it
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
maybe we are all the same race with different colour skins and hair and eyes, the human race! how about that, its not a new concept is it

No, but we are the same species, the Human Speces. The human species has different sub divisions of genetic variation called race.

doppelgänger;1075407 said:

I don't consider skin color to be the main determination of race. Many other traits are considered to determine race. And then we also must consider that there is so much intermixing between racial groups that there isn't any 'pure' race. We all have some degree of mixed racial variation.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Thus, in the 20th century two conceptions of race
existed: one that focused on human biogenetic variation
exclusively and was the province of science, and a popular
one that dominated all thinking about human differences
and fused together both physical features and behavior.
This popular conception, essentially a cultural invention,
was and still is the original meaning of race that scholars in
many fields turned their attention to in the latter part of the
20th century and the early 21st century (A. Smedley,
1999a, 1999b, 2002a, 2002b). It is important to explore its
origins, examine how it has evolved, and analyze its meaning
and significance in those cultures where race became
important.

In the early 18th century, usage of the term increased
in the written record, and it began to become standardized
and uniform (Poliakov, 1982). By the Revolutionary era,
race was widely used, and its meaning had solidified as a
reference for social categories of Indians, Blacks, and
Whites (Allen, 1994, 1997; A. Smedley, 1999b). More than
that, race signified a new ideology about human differences
and a new way of structuring society that had not
existed before in human history. The fabrication of a new
type of categorization for humanity was needed because the
leaders of the American colonies at the turn of the 18th
century had deliberately selected Africans to be permanent
slaves (Allen, 1994, 1997; Fredrickson, 1988, 2002; Morgan,
1975; A. Smedley, 1999b).8 In an era when the dominant
political philosophy was equality, civil rights, democracy,
justice, and freedom for all human beings, the only
way Christians could justify slavery was to demote Africans
to nonhuman status (Haller, 1971; A. Smedley,
1999b). The humanity of the Africans was debated
throughout the 19th century, with many holding the view
that Africans were created separately from other, more
human, beings.9

Source
 

Fluffy

A fool
Sola'lor said:
So where does dark skin and light skin come from? What about hair color? What about Eye color? Height, etc? THose are part of what we call race. Those are genetic traits inherited from our parents. I am what could be considered caucasian. My fiancee is Filipina. When we have children they will have lighter dark skin(or darker light skin depending on your view). They will probably also have dark hair and brown eyes. Those racial traits will come from the genetics of their parents. I don't see how anyone can deny that these traits come from genetics.
Does the Filipino racial group include or exclude the Maranaw? How about the Malaysians and Indonesians?

How about Caucasians? Does that include Afghans? Does that include Turks? How about Syrians?

What is the difference between a race and a mixed race? Why is a mixed race not also a race in itself?

List the qualities that a Caucasian has. What hair colour do I need to have in order to be Caucasian? What hair colour do I need to have in order to be Filipino? What range of skin pigments differentiates a Filipino and a Caucasian? Where are these facts determined genetically (not "which genes determine skin pigment" but "which genes determine a skin pigment to be part of race X")

Also, nobody is denying that traits (phenotypes) are caused by genetics (genotypes). Only that the collection of phenotypes that some have designated a race is an arbitrary social construct that has no basis in genetics.

Sola'lor said:
No, but we are the same species, the Human Speces. The human species has different sub divisions of genetic variation called race.
What races of butterfly are there?
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Also, nobody is denying that traits (phenotypes) are caused by genetics (genotypes). Only that the collection of phenotypes that some have designated a race is an arbitrary social construct that has no basis in genetics.
It has its basis in economics. :yes:
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
No, but we are the same species, the Human Speces. The human species has different sub divisions of genetic variation called race.



I don't consider skin color to be the main determination of race. Many other traits are considered to determine race. And then we also must consider that there is so much intermixing between racial groups that there isn't any 'pure' race. We all have some degree of mixed racial variation.
From the 19th century on, races have been seen in science
as subdivisions of the human species that differ from one
another phenotypically, on the basis of ancestral geographic
origins, or that differ in the frequency of certain
genes (Lewontin, 1995; Marks, 1995; A. Smedley, 1999b).
The genetic conception of race appeared in the mid-20th
century and remains today as a definition or working hypothesis
for many scholars (A. Smedley, 1999b; Spencer,
1982). However, other scholars have recognized that there
are no neutral conceptualizations of race in science, nor
have any of the definitions ever satisfactorily fully explained
the phenomenon of race (Brace, 1969; A. Smedley,
1999a, 1999b). When geneticists appeared who emphasized
the similarities among races (humans are 99.9%
alike)
, the small amount of real genetic differences among
them (0.01%)
, and the difficulties of recognizing the racial
identity of individuals through their genes, doubts about the
biological reality of race appeared (see Littlefield, Lieberman,
& Reynolds, 1982).

Source



Perhaps you should read the linked article?
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Does the Filipino racial group include or exclude the Maranaw? How about the Malaysians and Indonesians?

Well dispite my generalization earlier I don't consider there to be a 'Filipino' race. But ofcourse that depends on the level of detail you are willing to go into. There are many genetically similar groups in the Filipines that I would consider different racial groups. Filipino is a nationality not aracial group.

How about Caucasians? Does that include Afghans? Does that include Turks? How about Syrians?

It depends on how specific you want to be in your genetic classification.

What is the difference between a race and a mixed race?

Genetics.

Why is a mixed race not also a race in itself?

It should be. But it depends to what degree you want to classify racial characteristics.

Also, nobody is denying that traits (phenotypes) are caused by genetics (genotypes). Only that the collection of phenotypes that some have designated a race is an arbitrary social construct that has no basis in genetics.

Race is a classification of indiviuals with certain genetic qualities. These qualities are manifest in physical characteristics. As a classification system it is ofcourse something that humans came up with. But just becuase the classification system is something we came up with doesn't mean that genetic variation doesn't exist.

Race is a classification system for real genetic variation. It also depends on how specific you want to be in the determination. You could classify every individual as a seperate race for all I care but the genetic variations still exist.

What races of butterfly are there?[/quote] I don't know. My mother could tell you. She is a butterfly fanatic.
 

Fluffy

A fool
Heya Sola'lor,
To clarify what is being claimed:
Some argue that although "race" is a valid taxonomic concept in other species, it cannot be applied to humans.[3] Many scientists have argued that race definitions are imprecise, arbitrary, derived from custom, have many exceptions, have many gradations, and that the numbers of races delineated vary according to the culture making the racial distinctions; thus they reject the notion that any definition of race pertaining to humans can have taxonomic rigour and validity.[4] Today most scientists study human genotypic and phenotypic variation using concepts such as "population" and "clinal gradation". Many contend that while racial categorizations may be marked by phenotypic traits, the idea of race itself, and actual divisions of persons into races, are social constructs.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11]
Do you agree that these difficulties exist with the concept of race?

If so, how can race have any sort of meaning?
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Heya Sola'lor,
To clarify what is being claimed:
Do you agree that these difficulties exist with the concept of race?

If so, how can race have any sort of meaning?

I had to get my dictionary out for Taxanomic. :p

I agree that what is commonly accepted as racial classification is incapable of properly classifying people of simliar genetic variation.

Terms such as Black, White, Hispanic, etc. are not correct and flawed when considering genetic diversity.

Unfortunatly we don't have many other terms to use when refering to people of similar genetics.

I don't think racial variations have any importance in relation to the potential of an individual.
 

mrscardero

Kal-El's Mama
If race has no biological basis, can I just choose to be a different one? Can I just decide that from now on I'm a tall Filipino? Can race be chosen by the individual or does society have to determine my race?

Why would you want to be a tall Filipino? What makes you want to change your race?
If you move to the Phillippines, you will be considered an American. You can speak their language and eat their food, but you will still be considered an American.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Why would you want to be a tall Filipino? What makes you want to change your race?
If you move to the Phillippines, you will be considered an American. You can speak their language and eat their food, but you will still be considered an American.

Even Germans and Canadians are considered Americans.

Hey Joe! Americano! Up Here!
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Sola'lor:

I'm not sure how we'll get through to you, but the fact is that race is a socially derived trait. Race only exists because we say it does. For example, in the past, Jews were not considered part of the "white race." Now, they are. How do you explain that change? Did their skin color change? Did their genes change? No. The social context of their existence in America changed. They went from being outsiders to insiders and with that social shift came the shift in race.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If race has no biological basis, can I just choose to be a different one? Can I just decide that from now on I'm a tall Filipino? Can race be chosen by the individual or does society have to determine my race?
Race is an arbitrary distinction of features and characteristics. Race is chosen, though your participation in it may not be.
 
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