Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah

[firedragon]

That is what Quran claims in the very beginning of it. Chapter One from Quran I have already quoted in this thread.

In the beginning of the Second Chapter Quran mentions its purpose which is nothing but ethical, moral and spiritual guidance:

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif Lam Mim.
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous*,

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

*the Arabic word muttaqeen has been translated here as righteous; its other meanings could be one who is eagerly and sincerely in search of truth; or seeker after truth.

Regards

Brother, Im curious to know what this translation is.

Just curious because it doesnt say perfect. Zalikal Kithaba La raiba fee he. This is the book.

Just curious to know who.

 

[outhouse]

But I can say this. The Quran records of Haamaan who is pharaohs associate. Haamaan was not know to have existed until the 18th century. And he is not mentioned in the bible together with Pharaoh. And Haamaan and Pharaoh are both associated with Moses. If you believe that it is peculiar and a curiosity raising point "How did Haman get into the Quran when no one knew of his existence until 16 centuries later", then explore it and see what make of it.

Peace.

Getting the name of one of a pharaohs correct does not make the rest of the story historical.

Maybe there was text back then and they knew this one fact. But at this time, we dont know it was just dead luck due to a common name. I dont know. I think its plausible it is the same character.


BUT

As written, it, the exodus, factually did not happen, and Israelites factually did evolve from displaces Canaanites.

Your books go against this fact, making another of many historical errors.

 

[firedragon]

Getting the name of one of a pharaohs correct does not make the rest of the story historical.

Maybe there was text back then and they knew this one fact. But at this time, we dont know it was just dead luck due to a common name. I dont know. I think its plausible it is the same character.


BUT

As written, it, the exodus, factually did not happen, and Israelites factually did evolve from displaces Canaanites.

Your books go against this fact, making another of many historical errors.

You embrace lack of evidence for moses and the evolution of Israelis but shrug off the story of Haman with some maybe. Brother, that's mishandling.

Also you repeating what someone else has said like a parrot. I dont mean to demean you, but just sit back and think a bit, you are quoting Moses because I brought him up. Have you read the full story in the bible and Quran both to know that it was plagiarised? I doubt it.

I am aching to point his story but I dont see a point.

Anyway your assessment was wrong regarding Haman, his name was never known since it has not been found anywhere but Egypt and certainly not in the bible. I wonder why Muhammed included his name in the Quran while copying Moses' story from it!

The name is mentioned in the bible, last chapter in a latter book, Ester which is another person, nothing to do with the Pharaoh.

28:6 And to enable them in the land, and to show Pharaoh and Haman and their troops what they had feared.

28:38 And Pharaoh said: “O commanders, I have not known of any god for you other than me. Therefore, O Haman, fire-up the bricks and make for me a high platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is one of the liars.”

Hamans name is mentioned six times in the Quran, he is the builder and right hand for Moses.

This fact was never known until Egyptian hieroglyphic script was deciphered in the 18th century. My memory fails me but I think it was in 1797 but dont murder me if I got the year wrong. But the fact is, until then these egyptian scripts were never read as no one knew how to. Also, Muhammed lived in Saudi Arabia, so he could have never come across this name.

Why would he add this name to the story? If he plagiarised from the bible? To be frank Moses is mentioned in the Quran more than anyone else.

The Quran also has so many other things, but I understand that you must focus on the biblical characters that are also mentioned in the Quran since thats the way to prove lagiarism.

Peace

 

[outhouse]

You embrace lack of evidence for moses and the evolution of Israelis but shrug off the story of Haman with some maybe. Brother, that's mishandling.

I don't embrace it, it is what it is. Unlike you I study history and do not apply religious bias.


I did not shrug off Haman, but your books have no value when it comes to Israelite history, you confuse mythology and history.

Have you read the full story in the bible

Yes

to know that it was plagiarised? I doubt it.

Not your book. I tend to read things with historical value.

I study the ethnogenesis of Israelites, of which your book has no value at all.

he is the builder and right hand for Moses.

Yes in literature alone. Moses factually has no historicity.

Hamans name is mentioned six times in the Quran,

Who cares??


It does not make the mythical stories in the bible true.



Maybe your scribes plagiarized him just like the rest of the stuff they plagiarized.



Israelites told a story of Noah and a mythical flood, another plagiarized character of yours and there was a historical flood, but that doesn't make a worldwide deluge real. You need to improve your methodology.

One correct name possibly by luck alone, or some source added while they plagiarized Moses accounts, does not make Israelite history correct.

 

[idav]

This is copied from rabbis word for word found in the quran.

Talmud was written hundred of years before Muhammad. But the interesting part is it is commentary(tafsir) of Jewish Rabbis not Torah itself. So how come what Rabbis wrote made it into Quran exactly word by word. Looks like classic case of Plugrassim. Muhammad perhaps could not differentiate between Torah and Talmud. Following is the piece from Talmud.*In the Jewish tradition there is nothing more sacred than human life (see Genesis 4:10: Genesis 9:5-6; see also the sixth Commandment: "You shall not murder!" Exodus 20:13 and Deut. 5:17). Furthermore, for saving a human life (pikuah nefesh) one can transgress almost every commandment in the Torah including the Laws of Shabbat, Yom Kippur and the dietary laws (Yoma 82a and parallels, 83a, 85a-b). A clear example of this value of human life is found in the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 4:5). This Mishnah describes the warning given to witnesses in capital cases to be very careful in their testimony: "Why did God create all of mankind out of one single person?*To teach you that whoever destroys one life is considered as if he had destroyed the entire world, and whoever saves one life is considered as if he had saved the entire world."

Ptobably the most famous one...

Muhammad/Allah 5:32 "Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors."

This is from the Talmud that Muhammad would learned having a sit down with a local Rabbi. Not from the Hebrew Scriptures but another Rabbi's commentary on the Scriptures. Muhammad/Allah did not know which sayings and teachings were scripture or not.

In other words this would be like Joseph Smith quoting St. Francis instead of the New Testament for Jesus' teachings.

It would make sense if stories of the local and traveling Jews, whom Muhammad admired greatly prior to his rejection, were being piggybacked. It was the entire backdrop for a ruling prophet that was needed. The pagan tribes of the Arabs, like those of most of the world, didn't have that concept of prophethood - despite what Muhammad later would claim....messengers/prophets sent to all peoples.

Please quote from Talmud with reference.

Also please mention the name of the local Rabbi mentioned by you and its reference.

Also please mention detail with reference to your sentence "Not from the Hebrew Scriptures but another Rabbi's commentary on the Scriptures."

I am an open mind and I welcome truth that may come from any source and any where it comes.

Thanks for your interest in the subject.

Did you see the YouTube cassette sent by a friend here. Dr.Zakar Naik made good points in it. If you have not viewed it earlier please view it now. It takes on a few minute to view it.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

Also you repeating what someone else has said like a parrot.

That's where your ignorance shines.


I am not repeating anything. I have done the work and research, and know this information front and back.



Islamic mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islamic mythology is the body of traditional narratives associated with Islam from a mythographical perspective. Many Muslims regard these narratives as historical and sacred and believe they contain profound truths.

YOU fit this or not? You do not understand the huge difference between apologetics and REAL history??


Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[11] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[12] form parts of Islam's scriptures.

Islam shares the creation myth of Judaism and Christianity,


Plagiarized myths

 

[firedragon]

QUOTE=outhouse;3857318]I don't embrace it, it is what it is. Unlike you I study history and do not apply religious bias.[/QUOTE]

Unlike me you study history? Brother, your attitude shows.

I did not shrug off Haman, but your books have no value when it comes to Israelite history, you confuse mythology and history.

Thats your opinion.

Yes
Not your book. I tend to read things with historical value.

I study the ethnogenesis of Israelites, of which your book has no value at all.

If you dont read my book how could you just make comments blindly. Of course, you have read it somewhere, but you have not made an analysis.

Yes in literature alone. Moses factually has no historicity.

That I am aware. I am aware of no archaeological findings. And I dont see a point in discussing Egyptian findings either.

Who cares??

Dont care. Of course. If you care you cant be bias.

It does not make the mythical stories in the bible true.

Maybe your scribes plagiarized him just like the rest of the stuff they plagiarized.

Israelites told a story of Noah and a mythical flood, another plagiarized character of yours and there was a historical flood, but that doesn't make a worldwide deluge real. You need to improve your methodology.

One correct name possibly by luck alone, or some source added while they plagiarized Moses accounts, does not make Israelite history correct.

Alright. You cannot drill air.

Peace.

 

[outhouse]

[youtube]5LE4CHqD9GI[/youtube]
Quran PLAGIARIZE from the Torah and Gospel - YouTube

 

[firedragon]

That's where your ignorance shines.


I am not repeating anything. I have done the work and research, and know this information front and back.



Islamic mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islamic mythology is the body of traditional narratives associated with Islam from a mythographical perspective. Many Muslims regard these narratives as historical and sacred and believe they contain profound truths.

YOU fit this or not? You do not understand the huge difference between apologetics and REAL history??


Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[11] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[12] form parts of Islam's scriptures.

Islam shares the creation myth of Judaism and Christianity,


Plagiarized myths

Thank you so much for the Wiki link. I would have never found it online.

Peace bro.

 

[outhouse]

If you dont read my book how could you just make comments blindly.
.

Your book is too far removed from any actual historical event.


Do you look for books that are 600-800 years old when you need to learn something?


Or do you try and find the most recent one?

 

[firedragon]

Your book is too far removed from any actual historical event.


Do you look for books that are 600-800 years old when you need to learn something?


Or do you try and find the most recent one?

Of course. Brother, I know that you are a rational person and I do respect that. If this world is not with people like you then we will regress. I dont say that all Muslims are rational or/and scientific.

If I want to learn something, lets say Crossborder Marketing, i will definitely take the latest edition. And you know why.

But if I am to study the bible as a study, which I doubt you are interested in I will take the oldest because that is more authentic than a latter. Same goes to the Quran, I dont talk of translation.

But these things dont have anything in common. Completely two different purposes. I doubt you will be interested.

Peace.

 

[outhouse]

I dont say that all Muslims are rational or/and scientific.

.

My bone to pick with the religion, is that at one time it was the center of scientific thinking and knowledge in the whole world, until a bad iman ruined it, and the religion and its people have never recovered.

But that doesn't address the OP.

I don't think any amount of reason will change any apologetic mind, so sadly there is no possible debate here.

 

[firedragon]

I don't embrace it, it is what it is. Unlike you I study history and do not apply religious bias.
I did not shrug off Haman, but your books have no value when it comes to Israelite history, you confuse mythology and history.
Not your book. I tend to read things with historical value.
I study the ethnogenesis of Israelites, of which your book has no value at all.
Yes in literature alone. Moses factually has no historicity.

I didnt wanna respond with a response that made sense because you were rude in nature. But out of respect to you I am posting this. Make an honest analysis. I am gonna show some Quranic stories about Moses and map it to history. Maybe not all because truly archaeological proof do not exist on Moses.

I understand your contention that Israelis evolved from the Canaanites but where in the Quran does it say that all Israelis we in Egypt? It never says all of them. It simply narrates a story. Also you must note that the Quran calls them children of Israel or Bani Israel. It wouldnt if Israelis are supposed to have evolved from Egypt. Why would a people in Egypt be called children if Israel unless Israel already existed?

Here it is.

Haamaan or Haman was never cited in the bible nor any other document in the world other than Egyptian ancient lit in a language not deciphered until 1899 (I checked the date and stand corrected. Excuse mwa) with the discovery of the rosetta stone. An Egyptian tablet now in the Hof museum in Vienna shows how close Haman was to the Pharaoh. Bible does not record this. How did it only enter the Quran if it was plagiarism? Hope you understand my point. Also, this is a historical fact recorded.

The Ipuwer Papyrus dating back to the middle kingdom if I am not mistaken over 1600 years ago. This papyrus describes the perils that the Pharaohs era went through as described in the Quran. This papyrus can be found in the Museum in Holland even now.

Quran records that the Pharaohs body will be saved from the water and you will find that his mummy was found preserved in the red sea in the 19th century. 1898. Wonder if that was a coincidence.


The drowning of the pharaoh is also described in the Egyptian Papyri No 6 found in the British Museum now.

But I give it to you that Moses is not mentioned in these tablets or papyrus's.

 

[firedragon]

My bone to pick with the religion, is that at one time it was the center of scientific thinking and knowledge in the whole world, until a bad iman ruined it, and the religion and its people have never recovered.

But that doesn't address the OP.

I don't think any amount of reason will change any apologetic mind, so sadly there is no possible debate here.

I shall pretend that I secretly agree.

 

[Sees]

This is copied from rabbis word for word found in the quran.

It really is very plain and obvious for most. There should have at least been sources cited and credit given No different than me using a quote I like from a forum member on here while saying I actually received it through divine inspiration. One could go to the deep end and petition that the rabbi borrowed from was instead a prophet - so it was God repeating himself and not Muhammad or followers stealing teachings and stories from local Jews and Christians. None ever even suggest it though.

To me it is hand in hand with selectively naming Jewish and Christian prophetic figures while claiming every nation of the world had at least one. All the pieces of the puzzle show localized information cobbled together to form a campaign.

 

[firedragon]

It really is very plain and obvious for most. There should have at least been sources cited and credit given No different than me using a quote I like from a forum member on here while saying I actually received it through divine inspiration. One could go to the deep end and petition that the rabbi borrowed from was instead a prophet - so it was God repeating himself and not Muhammad or followers stealing teachings and stories from local Jews and Christians. None ever even suggest it though.

To me it is hand in hand with selectively naming Jewish and Christian prophetic figures while claiming every nation of the world had at least one. All the pieces of the puzzle show localized information cobbled together to form a campaign.

Whats the exact and explicit proof that you can quote? Did you also find this on the net?

I believe the debate is if God exists or not. I dont know, it seems like it. I shall stop there.

 

[Sees]

Whats the exact and explicit proof that you can quote? Did you also find this on the net?

I believe the debate is if God exists or not. I dont know, it seems like it. I shall stop there.

Proof that there are no Chinese, Japanese, American, European, etc. prophets named or that rabbinical writings from centuries before Muhammad's birth were utilized? It is plain as day

 

[firedragon]

Proof that there are no Chinese, Japanese, American, European, etc. prophets named or that rabbinical writings from centuries before Muhammad's birth were utilized? It is plain as day

Oh so that's what you are talking of. Yep. Where did you find that? And what does it have to do with this thread?

 

[Sees]

Oh so that's what you are talking of. Yep. Where did you find that? And what does it have to do with this thread?

It is what this thread is all about :sarcastic

Did Quran/Muhammad copy from...?

All clues say yes, Jewish and Christian writings, teachings, legends gave the means to invent a new Abrahamic political, religious system.

 

[firedragon]

It is what this thread is all about :sarcastic

Did Quran/Muhammad copy from...?

All clues say yes, Jewish and Christian writings, teachings, legends gave the means to invent a new Abrahamic political, religious system.

I get your point. I also get that you havent read other posts on this thread. If you can please answer them, or it is absurd.