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Featured Is punishment really the right approach for sin?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. PopeADope

    PopeADope Habemus papam

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    Typically when I commit sins, it's a result of being miserable. I've never shoplifted or got in a physical fight or committed any crime against another person because I was feeling good.

    Were God to make me more miserable because I sinned, that is only liable to make me sin more and more seriously, and be more rebellious against God.

    I think the sinner should be motivated by reward. The consequences for sin are still there, but it is simply that falling into the sin, (drug abuse is my vice) and accepting the brief reward for sin, causes the loss of a greater reward (the reward for resisting the urge to give in to the temptation).

    I'm just convinced that if eternal hell was in God's original plan, God has likely changed his mind (yes, it is biblical that you can get God to change his mind) about it being a place of eternal suffering where souls cannot repent or change their mind.

    I think even God would recognize how asinine and cruel that would be, especially considering that most people who reject Christianity are not people who know they are rejecting God or truth.

    So, I'm assuming we can reason with God like Moses did, and stop God from making asinine or cruel moves against sinners.

    Anyway, as I said, when I commit serious sin, my misery comes first . For example, when I commit the sin of sloth or laziness, it's always because I'm depressed or tired. When i have much energy, im not lazy and less likely to relapse.

    When I blaspheme, it's almost always because I'm uncomfortable in my skin and want to die and hate God for giving me life. I think God flogging me isn't the answer to such an affliction.... neither is physical mortification (penance/self-flagelation), because bodily and mental suffering is causing the blasphemy to begin with.

    If God offers a sinner something they long for , like the gift of prophecy, healing, visions Divinely inspired, a love affair, understanding, wisdom, spiritual extacy, financial help, sucess at school, new job, or some foretaste of heaven, that reward offered would cause less sin in our world far more than threat of destruction or hell would.

    Thoughts? Does this post make more sense than God does as he is presented by the average Evangelical Christian or how the Bible presents him?

    What is the correct way to decrease sin in our world?
     
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  2. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
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    By realizing that what one calls "sin" in just a "judgment" of self and others and that "judgment" is a product of ego.
     
  3. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    Sin is a man made concept. A way for earlier populations to explain bad occupancies. An existential crisis common in the foundations of religious belief. Not all religions, but many.

    I think it’s largely out of date and not relevant to today. Regardless of whether one believes in God or not.

    I generally buck against religious traditions. Rituals are one thing, but I prefer to find God my own way.
     
  4. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    I can honestly say the best thing I ever did ( as far as knowledge is concerned) was to reject mainstream Christian ideas and seek the truth as revealed in Scripture. Approach the Scripture as a child willing to be taught of God. And reject all man made ideas in favor of the Scripture.
     
  5. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

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    Being given the ability to forgive oneself is probably better than any punishment that could be doled out.
     
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  6. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    God doesn't punish for every sin. As you can see there are people who commit terrible sins every day and yet they succeed in life. God provides them with everything.

    And there are good people who are tested with more obstacles and "misery" than many bad people.

    Good fortune is a test just as bad fortune is. Both give a person a chance to pass the test by being righteous and patient. A person should not blame God when some misfortune comes to them. Nor should they forget to be grateful to God when good fortune comes to them. This would be the sin of arrogance.

    Some so called believers, when they get good things in life think it is due to their own merits. They don't understand it is by the mercy of God. When something bad comes to them they think it is God's fault; some kind of a mistake.

    For the one living a life full of sin, not being punished for it in this life (from an outsider's viewpoint) is the punishment. It may be God has stopped guiding them and helping them to become a better person. Instead he let's them commit more and more sin, and when the ultimate judgment comes, they will be punished by the worst possible way.
     
  7. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    The ability to forgive oneself also comes from God.
     
  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Death is the only punishment for sin. Romans 7:23 says that.

    (EDIT: Romans 6:23...sorry!)


    Torment (after death) was made up by the Church, to exert control over its members. The teaching actually dishonors God.
     
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  9. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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  10. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    I don't accept the God is a harsh daddy who punishes us for our sins frame-of-reference. To me that image of God comes from enlarging the view of fathers as they used to be.

    I go further and reject the notion of sin. Rather to me we make mistakes and learn from them. Some of the learning can be painful just as a child who puts his hand in the fire can be burned. But it's not punishment by a stern father but rather the automatic consequence of actions.

    On the flip side, every kind act or even thought, no matter how small, helps reduce the darkness which you've called "sin". From Rumi:

    "Even if you have broken your vows a thousand times:
    Come. Come yet again. Come"

    Because to live is to learn. And learning is the name of the game.
     
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  11. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

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    Depends on who one asks.
     
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Problem is that scripture is a "man-made idea."
     
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  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    To answer your title question, I don't believe God does punish us for sin. I think the whole idea pushing the Christian philosophy in the first place is grace, not punishment. Jesus didn't come to punish us, Jesus came to impart grace. I think this whole thing about "sin being our nature" and punishment was a later (and I think) false teaching introduced into Xy that has caused a lot of emotional and sociological damage.

    To answer your last question,
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I've been thinking about sin a lot lately -- not that I feel I, myself, am "lost in sin," but just meditating on how broken humanity is. I think that sin is a mask -- a :"false self" that we've either fashioned for ourselves or have been taught. I really don't think sin has anything to do with "being bad," per se. I think sin is largely a matter of "forgetting ourselves," that is, forgetting our true nature as lovely beings with a deep capacity for love and nurture, beings created in the image of the Creator. I think that "being bad" or "doing bad things" is a result of sin or of forgetting who we are, not sin itself.

    That being said, why would God punish us for being "covered in dirt?" A good parent simply takes the dirty child in and gives it a bath, restoring the child to cleanliness and health. Isn't that what grace does for us?
     
  15. Goodman John

    Goodman John Member

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    In my book, if I'm not 'good enough' and my soul doesn't escape this rock and get back to God it- and whatever part of me goes with it- will have to endure another life. As I view this physical world as 'Hell', being separated from God for that much longer is punishment in itself. In that respect 'sin' is whatever keeps me from getting closer to God.
     
    #15 Goodman John, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    That's always struck me as being very odd -- that one could view the earth, which has been fashioned out of God's Being, as "hell," or somehow separate from God. For me, the world is God's physical body. The wind is God's breath, the rivers God's lifeblood.
     
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  17. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I have understood that sin is same as unrighteousness and that is the opposite of righteousness. Righteousness is wisdom of the just, right understanding that makes person do right things, because person understands it is good and right.

    He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
    1 John 3:7-10

    So, person who is unrighteous, has sin. And sin means person rejects God. And when God is rejected, all unlawful things can follow.

    This is why I think correct way to decrease sin is to help people to get right understanding. If only reason why person doesn’t do bad things is that he gets “protection money”, it means the person is not very righteous. Sin doesn’t decrease, even if you don’t do all bad things, if you don’t have the wisdom of the just.
     
  18. Goodman John

    Goodman John Member

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    I take an opposing view, that the world- our physical universe- was not created by God at all, but by Satan in an attempt to escape God following a cataclysmic war between them. Satan was ejected from God's spiritual realm and busied himself with creating a 'kingdom' of his own, putting in play all the flora and fauna we see as well as Man who he created to be a servant. In order to make Man 'work', though, he required the use of spirits (or souls) taken from God when he was expelled from God's house. As it stands, for those who are aware of God, it is of prime importance to strengthen our soul in order to escape this 'Hell on earth' and return to God (if we don't, upon our death our soul will be recycled into another body at conception and we'll have to do this all over again). The world is indeed beautiful, full of many magnificent sights, but it a thin veneer to distract us from it being a warped, dirty, rotting world in which every living thing- including Man- is either killing others or being killed. I hardly think this is the product of God, and I certainly don't think it's the sort of place God would ever even consider deliberately sending any son into.

    (Sneak preview: When the number of 'saved' souls- those who have escaped back to God- equals the number of the unsaved, the physical realm (our universe) will cease to exist, Satan will be returned to the spiritual realm to await God's pleasure, and those unsaved souls will either be destroyed or otherwise utterly separated from God. So it's not all bad- Satan's ultimate defeat is only a matter of time if we get our act together down here. We just need to make sure our souls don't miss that last bus to Paradise.)
     
    #18 Goodman John, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  19. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    Someone who believes in an almighty God?
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    That's certainly not within the realm of a classical Christian theology. I'm not sure you'd find it biblically defensible. But you may not be specifically in that wheel house.
     
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