Is prostrating before someone a prerequisite for “enlightenment“?

[Sirona]

This morning I watched a video by Swami Vishwananda about the “relationship between the master and the disciple”. I am well aware that he’s not the epitome of traditional Hinduism but he’s what’s available to me so I chose this video.

Vishwananda, like the Bhagavad Gita states that you should prostrate before the guru and “inquire” from him. This sounds like a fairly rational process to me. However Vishwananda’s style of “advertising” heavily appeals to the emotions due to his enormous charisma and by the way his organization suggests he would be the best buddy or lover you can ever imagine. Once he got his followers hooked, he criticizes his fans to have followed him “for the wrong reasons”, that in fact they should “leave him alone” and not use him as the projection figure he essentially created himself, directly or through his organization. In my eyes, he tells his followers nothing more than that they are stupid, but he says it with a smile. And for Western followers, who are expected to have so much "self-confidence" and some constant preoccupation with and optimization of the so-called "self", the suggestion that they are "stupid" may be a genuine revelation.

In the Christian-based culture in which I live, bowing down to others is a no-no, and from a Christian perspective, one should only perform a religious act when really, really, really convinced of it. Bowing to a guru without being certain about the "degree of his enlightenment" therefore seems a bit odd to me. However, I was wondering if there is a different culture of politeness in Asian countries where prostration is a form of “greeting” and does not automatically mean approval.

Would you say that prostrating before someone is just an act of politeness? Do you think appeal to emotions / charisma is a valid criterion for choosing a religious teacher? Would you bow down to a religious teacher you don’t know?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Title question: No.

Would you say that prostrating before someone is just an act of politeness?

No. It's an act of admiration, respect, and reverence.

Do you think appeal to emotions / charisma is a valid criterion for choosing a religious teacher?

No. I'll take knowledge and wisdom every day of the week and twice on Sunday over emotions/charisma. Aren't these, after all, ego driven concepts?

Would you bow down to a religious teacher you don’t know?

I bow to those that recognize the divinity in each person and understand the meaning of the bow. I don't know many that fit either bill, let alone both. There is a lady where I work I see almost daily in the warehouse, and when we see each other, we bow to each other.

 

[Vinayaka]

The stimuli for the act of prostration comes from the devotee, not the Guru. It's a sign of great respect, having benefitted from the wisdom that He has passed to you. Any Guru insisting others prostrate to him, or excessive prostration means it's fishy.

In my sampradaya, we prostrate to the Guru. and touch the feet of other swamis in the order, and outside the order. Touching the feet is also a sign of respect, and can be done to elders, priests, etc. but it doesn't carry the same weight as a full out prostration does.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Would you say that prostrating before someone is just an act of politeness? Do you think appeal to emotions / charisma is a valid criterion for choosing a religious teacher? Would you bow down to a religious teacher you don’t know?

No, it is not to be done in that light manner. I will bow to an idol because of my culture or to my two gurus Buddha and Sankara, because they helped me to form my views. Charisma/appeal to emotions will actually antagonize me. I would not even go to a lecture by a guru whose views I have no inkling of, so, no question of bowing to them. I am against all sort of mystic or goody-goody pronouncements.

 

[Sirona]

Personally, I was thinking more of Hare Krishna, but thank you for your thoughtful responses, which have offered me great insight. It is always easier to see the faults in others than in one's own group. At Hare Krishna, there is something similar to Vishwananda's group, namely "dandavats" which means throwing oneself flat to the ground "like a stick" (danda). I'm afraid if I were to join the Hare Krishnas, I would have to prostrate myself to everything and everyone except maybe the trash can. Who knows.

Thanks again.

 

[ajay0]

Vishwananda, like the Bhagavad Gita states that you should prostrate before the guru and “inquire” from him. This sounds like a fairly rational process to me.

Yes, a position of humility and patience is important when trying to gain wisdom from the Guru or anybody for that matter. This maybe because the transmission of wisdom is an act of love or compassion, and the proper behavior and etiquette of a student should be followed. Perhaps this sets up a state of consciousness which is conducive to the process.

If someone asks a question to you while showing attitude and arrogance, you will not be disposed to oblige him or her. However if they ask with humility and patience, you might go the extra mile in teaching and providing directions.

In the Christian-based culture in which I live, bowing down to others is a no-no, and from a Christian perspective, one should only perform a religious act when really, really, really convinced of it. Bowing to a guru without being certain about the "degree of his enlightenment" therefore seems a bit odd to me..

Bowing to a genuine saint or sage is considered to be auspicious, as it uplifts your consciousness.

For example, the avatar Rama is considered to be of 12 kalas or degrees of perfection, while Hanuman is of 14 kalas or degrees of perfection. This is because Hanuman always bowed to Rama and served him.

This is the same when one praises God as well.

'Stuti (repetition of God’s name) is that which raises our chetana (consciousness). We do stuti to raise our own consciousness, not to make God happy.' - Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

However, I was wondering if there is a different culture of politeness in Asian countries where prostration is a form of “greeting” and does not automatically mean approval.

Yes, prostration or bowing is a form of 'greeting' in Asia. Hindus do namaste, while japanese buddhists bow down from the waist to anyone they meet, even strangers as a form of respect.

Namaste actually translates as acknowledging the divinity in the other person.

Would you say that prostrating before someone is just an act of politeness? Do you think appeal to emotions / charisma is a valid criterion for choosing a religious teacher? Would you bow down to a religious teacher you don’t know?

It is a polite greeting as such, and even may serve as an ice-breaker, as people usually warms to humility and helps develop good relationships.

 

[ajay0]

At Hare Krishna, there is something similar to Vishwananda's group, namely "dandavats" which means throwing oneself flat to the ground "like a stick" (danda). I'm afraid if I were to join the Hare Krishnas, I would have to prostrate myself to everything and everyone except maybe the trash can. Who knows.

It is just an austerity or exercise in developing humility, and is not mandatory for everyone. I have never performed a dandavat in my life.

However if I find myself getting arrogant or egotistic upon self-auditing, I might consider performing some dandavats to tame the arrogant ego.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This morning I watched a video by Swami Vishwananda about the “relationship between the master and the disciple”. I am well aware that he’s not the epitome of traditional Hinduism but he’s what’s available to me so I chose this video.

Vishwananda, like the Bhagavad Gita states that you should prostrate before the guru and “inquire” from him. This sounds like a fairly rational process to me. However Vishwananda’s style of “advertising” heavily appeals to the emotions due to his enormous charisma and by the way his organization suggests he would be the best buddy or lover you can ever imagine. Once he got his followers hooked, he criticizes his fans to have followed him “for the wrong reasons”, that in fact they should “leave him alone” and not use him as the projection figure he essentially created himself, directly or through his organization. In my eyes, he tells his followers nothing more than that they are stupid, but he says it with a smile. And for Western followers, who are expected to have so much "self-confidence" and some constant preoccupation with and optimization of the so-called "self", the suggestion that they are "stupid" may be a genuine revelation.

In the Christian-based culture in which I live, bowing down to others is a no-no, and from a Christian perspective, one should only perform a religious act when really, really, really convinced of it. Bowing to a guru without being certain about the "degree of his enlightenment" therefore seems a bit odd to me. However, I was wondering if there is a different culture of politeness in Asian countries where prostration is a form of “greeting” and does not automatically mean approval.

Would you say that prostrating before someone is just an act of politeness? Do you think appeal to emotions / charisma is a valid criterion for choosing a religious teacher? Would you bow down to a religious teacher you don’t know?

Its surrendering ego.

 

[Sirona]

It is just an austerity or exercise in developing humility, and is not mandatory for everyone. I have never performed a dandavat in my life.

However if I find myself getting arrogant or egotistic upon self-auditing, I might consider performing some dandavats to tame the arrogant ego.

In my eyes, dandavats to a person about whose "holiness" I have no knowledge are a huge leap of faith that that person may not deserve. On this point, I agree with those who say that one should not be pressured by gurus or religious communities to do dandavats. My further question was about the extent to which dandavats express special respect for a religious authority or are a common form of greeting in Asia. Those who find this funny are probably very easily amused.

 

[Sirona]

Its surrendering ego.

Ego or self?

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is 'self' other than ego. Otherwise, it is all Brahman.
'Dandavat' is serious business.

Those who find this funny are probably very easily amused.

Oh yes, I am easily amused, but I changed funny to a like.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Ego or self?

Non attachment to the act of prostration. The rest naturally follows.

 

[ajay0]

In my eyes, dandavats to a person about whose "holiness" I have no knowledge are a huge leap of faith that that person may not deserve.

By bowing to an sage or saint, one gains blessings which is but the power of austerity of the one who blesses. This is the reason why one bows to sages and saints. It acts as a spiritual exercise to develop modesty or humility and tame the wilful ego. Secondly one gains grace or blessings or the power of tapas. By gaining grace, one attracts auspiciousness and positivity to oneself, which can help get rid of any problems and issues in life and also gains strength to accomplish ones goals .

In the Mahabharatha, Krishna has emphasized service to wise sages and wise,elderly people to gain wisdom and power of austerity.

In the religious literature, you can also see devotees performing services to sages and saints, and gaining boons and blessings in the process which brings a lot of auspiciousness in their lives.

On this point, I agree with those who say that one should not be pressured by gurus or religious communities to do dandavats.

Just bowing with namaste is enough. The main point is a humble and receptive state of mind, as the ego is said to block incoming grace and positivity. It is like being offered gold coins but one is not able to grip it due to a clenched fist.

If you do your meditation or sadhana properly and adhere to virtuous conduct, this would be enough to have receptivity to grace. Grace helps you accomplish a lot in a short span of time .

My further question was about the extent to which dandavats express special respect for a religious authority or are a common form of greeting in Asia.

Dandavats are definetely not a common form of greeting in Asia. One usually sees this performed by zealous devotees in temples or before some religious figures. But this is becoming a rare phenomenon now, as people are in general becoming more egoistic and materialistic-minded, and dandavats are usually hard on the ego.

Those who find this funny are probably very easily amused.

Dandawats and similar forms of prostrations are not a general feature of Hinduism. Some sects like the Vaishnavites emphasize it, while the Brahmakumaris forbid it.