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Is Prophet Muhammad really mentioned in Vedas?

ronki23

Well-Known Member
A lot of Muslims I know use Dr Zakir Naik as a source to say how Muhammad is in the Vedas/Geeta. How true is this claim? From what I skimmed over it's quite vague and depends on one's translation of certain words
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
It's a perfect example of how many religious people blindly follow whatever supports their beliefs. I've seen Muslims come up with this example many times.

No, it isn't in the Vedas or Gita. However, it is in a Puranic scripture, one that supposedly contains prophecies. The important thing to note here is that the prophesy says he is the incarnation of a demon and his purpose is pretty dark. He is a bad person, not some great hero.

Zakir Naik is infamous for twisting words and telling blatant lies and he gets away with it because, as I pointed out above, people just follow blindly instead of questioning their sources.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Is Vedas/Geeta a documented scripture? If it is, I guess the best way to find out is to find a full record of it and search for yourself to get an undisputed unbiased answer. I'm not sure if you can really find someone here on RF memorizing a whole scripture. I don't memorize the whole Quran, for example, but I can refer to it in full easily with different methods including the internet.

Otherwise I'd consider any answer a speculation.

If it is not a documented scripture, then I guess it's almost impossible to find a true answer unless you find someone memorizing it in full, which still could be doubtful.

Any idea when was Vedas/Geeta founded?
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Any idea when was Vedas/Geeta founded?

Yes, the Vedas are dated to at least 10,000 years ago (and Gita to around 5000 yrs). Hence why most Muslims also acknowledge that Hinduism is the oldest religion and why some take the Vedas seriously for predicting Mohammad.
But the mention of Mohammad is only in a Puranic (also Hindu but not from God) scripture, which is written much more recently. It is the one that Zakir Naik refers to, the one he completely mistranslates.
 

Jivaatma

Servants of Maha Vishnu
Is Vedas/Geeta a documented scripture?
Gita was spoken by God as an essence of vedas around 3102+30=3430 BC , Vedas DO NOT have an author. They are transmitted through oral tradition by brahmanas for millions of years and then penned down by Veda Vyasa atleast around 7000 BC fearing the loss of them. Vedas are ordinances, do this and do not do this, and lay the metaphysical aspects of universe. They do not talk about prophecies/ fairy tales/ triple talAq :| and so on........So there you go.

Bhavishya purana was heavily tampered by britishers when they ruled India/ Bhaarat, and it is not an authentic purana to start with. Even then I heard that muhammad is predicted as evil in it.


Then, as verses 7-8 relate, the Aryan King Bhojaraja, who had already left India for the lands across the Sindhu River and to the west, meets Mahamada [some say this is Mohammed], the preceptor of the mleccha-dharma [religion of the mlecchas], who had arrived with his followers. Thereafter, however, the King went to worship the image of Lord Mahadev, the great god Shiva, situated in the marusthal, desert. King Bhoj bathed the image of Shiva with Ganges water and worshiped him in his mind with panchagavya (the five purificatory elements from the cow, consisting of milk, ghee, yogurt, cow dung, and cow urine), along with sandalwood paste, etc., and offered him, the image of Shiva, sincere prayers and devotion. King Bhoj prayed to Lord Mahadev, "O Girijanath who stays in the marusthal (land of deserts), I offer my prayers to you. You have forced maya [the illusory energy] to destroy Tripurasur [the demon Tripura]; but the mlecchas are now worshiping you. You are pure and sat-chit-anand swaroop [eternal knowledge and bliss]. I am your sevak [servant]. I have come under your protection."


Verses 10-27 relates next that Suta Goswami explained: After hearing the king’s prayers and being pleased with him, Lord Shiva said: "Let the King go to Mahakaleshwar (Ujjain) in the land of Vahika, which is now contaminated by mlecchas. O King, the land where you are standing, that is popular by the name of Bahik, has been polluted by the mlecchas. In that terrible country there no longer exists Dharma. There was a mystic demon named Tripura (Tripurasura), whom I have already burnt to ashes once before, he has come again by the order of Bali. He has no origin but he achieved a benediction from me. His name is Mahamada and his deeds are like that of a ghost. Therefore, O king, you should not go to this land of the evil ghost. By my mercy your intelligence will be purified." [This would seem to indicate that this Mahamada was an incarnation of the demon Tripura.] So hearing this, the king came back to his country and Mahamada came with them, but only to the bank of the river Sindhu. He was expert in expanding illusion, so he said to the king very pleasingly, "O great king, your god has become my servant. Just see, as he eats my remnants, so I will show you."

The king became surprised when he saw this happening before them. Then in anger Kalidasa, the king’s commander, rebuked Mahamada, "O rascal, you have created an illusion to bewilder the king, I will kill you, you are the lowest..." Then the king left that area.

Later, in the form of a ghostly presence, the expert illusionist Mahamada appeared at night in front of King Bhojaraja and said: "O King, your religion is of course known as the best religion among all. Still, by the order of the Lord, I am going to establish a terrible and demoniac religion and enforce a strong creed over the meat-eaters [mlecchas]. My followers will be known by their cut [circumcised] genitals, they will have no shikha [tuft of hair on their head, like Brahmanas], but will have a beard, make noise loudly, and eat all kinds of animals except swine without observing any rituals. They will perform purificatory acts with the musala, and thus be called musalman, and not purify their things with kusha grass [one of the Vedic customs]. Thus, I will be the originator of this adharmic [opposed to Vedic or Aryan Dharma] and demoniac religion of the meat-eating nations." After having heard all this, the Bhavishya Purana goes on to relate that King Bhojaraja returned to his land and palace, and that ghost of the man also went back to his own place.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Any idea when was Vedas/Geeta founded?
Definitely by 4,000 BC, but could easily be earlier by 2,000 years, i.e., the oldest verses of RigVeda could be 8,000 year old. They mention the rise of sun on the day of vernal equinox in the asterism of Castor and Pollux. Gita, of course, is a later book. Hindu believers take it to be 5,159 years old.

Eight thousand years ago, Aryans were not in India but they were living in subarctic regions (i.e., before they came to the Andronovo region), which had seven and a half months of sun-shine during the year as indicated by the following verse in RigVeda:

"Saptabhiḥ putraih aditirupa praita pūrvyaṃ yugam l prajāyai mṛityave tvat punah mārtāṇḍam ābharat ll"
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv10072.htm (parsed for somewhat easier reading :))
(With seven sons Aditi approached (the gods) in the former age (pûrvyam yugam); she brought thither Mârtânda again for birth and death.)
* Aditi: Mother of Gods, Adityas, the bright ones.

They supposed that the seven fully formed sons became the seven Sun Gods but the eighth half-formed son/sun, Martanda (Mrit Anda - Dead Egg) was turned into human race, that is why birth and death.

Of course, Mohammad is not mentioned in RigVeda because it was codified around 1,000 BC (some 1,300 years before the birth of Mohammad).
 
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Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
The important thing to note here is that the prophesy says he is the incarnation of a demon and his purpose is pretty dark. He is a bad person, not some great hero.

That's really interesting. would you kindly and link me to the prophesy from the scriptures?
 

Jivaatma

Servants of Maha Vishnu
That's really interesting. would you kindly and link me to the prophesy from the scriptures?
This is the verse, but I am not sure how that would help you, anyway here you go...


mahamadh ithi khayat, shishya-sakha-samniviyath 5
....... mahadev marusthal nivasinam.
mahadevthe snanya-pya punch-gavua samnivithya


tripurarsur-nashav bahu-maya pravathiney 7
malech-dharma shav shudhaya sat-chit-anandaya swarupye,
thva ma hei kinkare vidhii sharanaghatham 8
suta uvacha: ithi shurthiya sthav deva shabadh-mah nupaya tam,
gath-vaya bhojraj-ney mahakhaleshwar-sthale 9
malech-shu dhu****a bhumi-vahika nam-vishritha
arya dharma hi nav-vathra vahike desh-darunya 10
vamu-vatra maha-mayi yo-sav dagdho myaa pura
tripuro bali-daithyane pro****h punaragath 11
ayoni sa varo math prasava daithyo-vrudhan
mahamadh ithi khayath , paishacha-kruthi thathpar 12
nagathvaya thvya bhup paisachae desh-vartake
math prasadhayane bhupal tav shudhii prajayathe 13

thi shruthva nupshav svadesha-napu maragmath
mahamadh toi sdhav sindhu-thir mupaye-yav 14
uchav bhupati premane mahamadh-virshad
tva deva maharaja das-tva magath 15
mamo-chit sabhu jiya-dhatha tatpashya bho nup
ithi shruthya ththa hata para vismaya-magath16

malechdhano mathi-shasi-tatsaya bhupasaya darutho17
tucha tva kalidas-sthu rusha praah mahamadham
maya-thei nirmithi dhutharya nush-mohan-hethvei 18
hanishyami-duravara vahik purusha-dhamum
ityak va sa jidh shrimanava-raja-tathpar 19
japthya dush-sah-trayach tah-sahansh juhav sa
bhasm mutva sa mayavi malech-dev-tva-magath 20
maybhithashtu tachya-shyaa desh vahii-kamayuuah
guhitva svaguro-bhasm madaheen tva-magatham 21
swapiit tav bhu-ghyot-thro-shrumadh-tathpara
madaheen puro jath thosha trith sayam smurthaum 22

rathri sa dev-roop-shav bahu-maya-virshad
paisacha deha-marathaya bhojraj hi so trivith 23
arya-dharmo hei to raja-sarvoutham smurth
ishapraya karinayami paishacha dharma darunbhu 24
linga-chedri shikhaheen shamshu dhaari sa dhushak
yukhalapi sarva bhakshi bhavishyat jano maum 25
vina kaul cha pashav-thosha bhakshava matha maum
muslanav sanskar kushariv bhavishyat 26
tasman-musal-vanto hi jathiyo dharma dhushika
ithi pishacha-dharma mya kruth 27

pishachas translates to demons in sanskrit
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
This is the verse, but I am not sure how that would help you, anyway here you go...


mahamadh ithi khayat, shishya-sakha-samniviyath 5
....... mahadev marusthal nivasinam.
mahadevthe snanya-pya punch-gavua samnivithya


tripurarsur-nashav bahu-maya pravathiney 7
malech-dharma shav shudhaya sat-chit-anandaya swarupye,
thva ma hei kinkare vidhii sharanaghatham 8
suta uvacha: ithi shurthiya sthav deva shabadh-mah nupaya tam,
gath-vaya bhojraj-ney mahakhaleshwar-sthale 9
malech-shu dhu****a bhumi-vahika nam-vishritha
arya dharma hi nav-vathra vahike desh-darunya 10
vamu-vatra maha-mayi yo-sav dagdho myaa pura
tripuro bali-daithyane pro****h punaragath 11
ayoni sa varo math prasava daithyo-vrudhan
mahamadh ithi khayath , paishacha-kruthi thathpar 12
nagathvaya thvya bhup paisachae desh-vartake
math prasadhayane bhupal tav shudhii prajayathe 13

thi shruthva nupshav svadesha-napu maragmath
mahamadh toi sdhav sindhu-thir mupaye-yav 14
uchav bhupati premane mahamadh-virshad
tva deva maharaja das-tva magath 15
mamo-chit sabhu jiya-dhatha tatpashya bho nup
ithi shruthya ththa hata para vismaya-magath16

malechdhano mathi-shasi-tatsaya bhupasaya darutho17
tucha tva kalidas-sthu rusha praah mahamadham
maya-thei nirmithi dhutharya nush-mohan-hethvei 18
hanishyami-duravara vahik purusha-dhamum
ityak va sa jidh shrimanava-raja-tathpar 19
japthya dush-sah-trayach tah-sahansh juhav sa
bhasm mutva sa mayavi malech-dev-tva-magath 20
maybhithashtu tachya-shyaa desh vahii-kamayuuah
guhitva svaguro-bhasm madaheen tva-magatham 21
swapiit tav bhu-ghyot-thro-shrumadh-tathpara
madaheen puro jath thosha trith sayam smurthaum 22

rathri sa dev-roop-shav bahu-maya-virshad
paisacha deha-marathaya bhojraj hi so trivith 23
arya-dharmo hei to raja-sarvoutham smurth
ishapraya karinayami paishacha dharma darunbhu 24
linga-chedri shikhaheen shamshu dhaari sa dhushak
yukhalapi sarva bhakshi bhavishyat jano maum 25
vina kaul cha pashav-thosha bhakshava matha maum
muslanav sanskar kushariv bhavishyat 26
tasman-musal-vanto hi jathiyo dharma dhushika
ithi pishacha-dharma mya kruth 27

pishachas translates to demons in sanskrit

Thanks. I'm looking for if it can help me because I don't believe in it, I'm just interested in the context how it is put. Is "mahamadh " the word for Muhammad? What is the full literal translation of the last verse? Are Veda/Geeta verses believed to be revealed by a higher power/God? If not, what is the source?

By the way, I'm just asking questions. I'm not debating. I respect having religious beliefs of one's own.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks. I'm looking for if it can help me because I don't believe in it, I'm just interested in the context how it is put. Is "mahamadh " the word for Muhammad? What is the full literal translation of the last verse? Are Veda/Geeta verses believed to be revealed by a higher power/God? If not, what is the source?

By the way, I'm just asking questions. I'm not debating. I respect having religious beliefs of one's own.

No worries.
Post #6 provides the translation but here is also a link from Wikiislam:

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Are Veda/Geeta verses believed to be revealed by a higher power/God? If not, what is the source?

The Vedas are considered the eternal truth, from God. The Gita/Geeta is literally spoken by God (but they are separate scriptures). However the scripture with the prophecy of Mohammad is not from those scriptures but rather from a more recent, most likely manipulated Hindu text. It can't be trusted. It's really ironic that so many Muslims actually believe that this Hindu prophecy is real even though the actual translation says that Mohammad is a bad man.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
No worries.
Post #6 provides the translation but here is also a link from Wikiislam:

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana
The Vedas are considered the eternal truth, from God. The Gita/Geeta is literally spoken by God (but they are separate scriptures). However the scripture with the prophecy of Mohammad is not from those scriptures but rather from a more recent, most likely manipulated Hindu text. It can't be trusted. It's really ironic that so many Muslims actually believe that this Hindu prophecy is real even though the actual translation says that Mohammad is a bad man.

Thanks for the heads up, RF Goddess, Ma'am :)

Well, they are still beliefs. If one accepts them, I'll have to respect that.

Does that recent scripture, referred to in red above, in general go under the same name as Vedas/Geeta, or do they have another name? I have to ask that since being recent kinda confuses me with the description of Vedas/Geeta (in green).

Also, thank for clarifying that Vedas and Geeta are separate scriptures. I thought they were names for the same reference.

Sorry for those many questions. I'm completely oblivious in this department.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Does that recent scripture, referred to in red above, in general go under the same name as Vedas/Geeta, or do they have another name? I have to ask that since being recent kinda confuses me with the description of Vedas/Geeta (in green).

Sorry for those many questions. I'm completely oblivious in this department.

No problem at all :)

The text with the prophecy is a Purana. There are many, many Puranas, all written at different times in history. They are often defined as 'remembered histories' in a religious context. Some are more reliable than others and some are even considered very sacred because of the particular authors and stories.

A good way to think about the different is that the Vedas are to Hinduism hat the Quran is to Islam while the Puranas are to Hinduism more like what the Hadiths are to Islam.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The important thing to note here is that the prophesy says he is the incarnation of a demon and his purpose is pretty dark. He is a bad person, not some great hero.
That is understandable. Muslims were invaders when these lines in puranas were written, and as is usual with Abrahamic invaders, they do not act like humans.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Are Veda/Geeta verses believed to be revealed by a higher power/God?
Believers say Vedas and Gita are directly from God. God inspired the RigVedic poets; and the charioteer of the blind king, Dhritarashtra, of the loosing faction in the Mahabharata war, the Kauravas, listened (and saw) the conversation between Lord Krishna, who was acting as the charioteer of the main warrior of the winning faction, Arjuna of the Pandavas, with his special powers. Lord Krishna had promised to the Kauravas not to lift a weapon in that war. But I take all that with a ;).

Mohammad became Mahamadh in the same way and Sindhu (Indus) became Darya-e-Sindh/Hind with Persians and Arabs. There is no prophesy in RigVeda, Gita or Upanishads. The concept of prophesy did not exist at that time. All that is in later puranas (sort of histories).

Appreciate your questions, Smart_Guy.
 
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Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Believers say Vedas and Gita are directly from God. God inspired the RigVedic poets; and the charioteer of the blind king, Dhritarashtra, of the loosing faction in the Mahabharata war, the Kauravas, listened (and saw) the conversation between Lord Krishna, who was acting as the charioteer of the main warrior of the winning faction, Arjuna of the Pandavas, with his special powers. Lord Krishna had promised to the Kauravas not to lift a weapon in that war. But I take all that with a ;).

Mohammad became Mahamadh in the same way and Sindhu (Indus) became Darya-e-Sindh/Hind with Persians and Arabs. There is no prophesy in RigVeda, Gita or Upanishads. The concept of prophesy did not exist at that time. All that is in later puranas (sort of histories).

Appreciate your questions, Smart_Guy.

Thanks man. That's informative.
 

Jivaatma

Servants of Maha Vishnu
Is "mahamadh " the word for Muhammad?
could or could not be, I am not sure about arabic countries as to how they address muslims in arabic but many Indians refer muslims as mahamadeeyaas or musalmaans in urdu. So mahamada could refer to Muhammad. I am a little bit aware of urdu as the place I live in India, Hyderabad the accent of hindi has many urdu words.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Is Vedas/Geeta a documented scripture? If it is, I guess the best way to find out is to find a full record of it and search for yourself to get an undisputed unbiased answer. I'm not sure if you can really find someone here on RF memorizing a whole scripture. I don't memorize the whole Quran, for example, but I can refer to it in full easily with different methods including the internet.

Otherwise I'd consider any answer a speculation.

If it is not a documented scripture, then I guess it's almost impossible to find a true answer unless you find someone memorizing it in full, which still could be doubtful.

Any idea when was Vedas/Geeta founded?
That's not true. You can just google the relevant words within the Scripture. I do it all the time.
 
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