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Featured Is Peace on Earth Really God's Goal????

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Bird123, May 6, 2017.

  1. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    None of your passages speak of creating peace on earth in fleshy bodies. Isaiah is talking about the end times and the Lord gathering up His people.

    Utopia or heaven on earth, this is explicitly forbidden. Do you not remember what happened in Babel when they tried to reach heaven without God?

    There is eventually peace on earth, but not in flesh bodies. In Revelations it speaks of Heaven on Earth, but we will be in spiritual bodies.
     
  2. ben d

    ben d Being

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    2 Corinthians 5:1-10

    Sure, the World is meant to be populated by physical mankind, just as Heaven is meant to be populated by spiritual beings.
     
    #322 ben d, Oct 14, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  3. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Everybody wants to rule the world is really mankind's greatest problem.

    Don't allow all the news headlines to alter your thinking to the extreme. People scrap for money and power.

    It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts.

    I find it doesn't help to react to things. I find if one Thinks then Acts, the results tend to be much better.

    Finally remember, Hate can dance around' however in the long run, it can not win.
     
  4. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Your way off base here. I don't even watch the news.
     
  5. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    Well, here is what Jesus supposedly said, "Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." some Christians will say the sword is metaphorical, but that does not negate the statement that he did not come to bring peace.
     
  6. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    Hi
    I have found that many people quote Shakespeare and many philosophers of old and continue to quote from their written works. I wonder how those may feel to a person learning about the Bible, by comparison?

    Can we really trust the Bible and what is says in this ancient book written around 4,000 years ago, and has been proven accurate in recent years, according to the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
    The answer to that question depends greatly on the answer to another question, Are there sound reasons to trust the Bible?

    May I ask your opinion on these matters?
    thanks
    May you have peace
    (quote)
     
  7. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    Well, I make no bones about having an atheistic viewpoint, thanks for asking.

    As to your reference to Shakespeare, nobody is claiming he is a god or is the cause of physics-defying miracles, or that he walked on water or rose from the dead. So that is a false equivalence.
    Neither Shakespeare himself nor his writings ever claim to be anything more than fictional stories written for entertainment.

    Also, even if the dead sea scrolls agreed to the last letter with the copies the Bible was based on, that does not make them any more true. That requires external verification. There is no way to verify that Jesus actually existed (He may well have, though, simply as a man). There is no way to verify that he walked on water, turned water into wine (a parlor trick at best) or rose from the grave. All of the things that are considered uniquely Christian have earlier origins, including virgin birth, rising from the dead, performing miracles, the flood, the creation, and on and on. They are not original.

    As someone said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claiming that there is a god who speaks things into existence (a whole universe in six days) is an extraordinary claim. Claiming he allowed his son to be sacrificed and then he rose from the grave after three days is an extraordinary claim. Claiming that the entire surface of the earth was covered with water requires exceptional evidence to be believed. There is no amount of anecdotal evidence that could suffice.

    Furthermore, science refutes many of the biblical claims.

    I'm just writing all of this because you asked my perspective and I didn't want to give it in a vacuum. I have no need to try and change your mind. I was just giving you my perspective.
     
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  8. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    Hi
    Thank you so much for giving me an idea of your beliefs and thoughts on the matter. I do appreciate your sharing of your perspective on the subject. And I don't think it would be possible for either of us to 'change' the mindset, or beliefs of the other. But it does make for good conversation, no?

    I actually agree with you that the planet earth was not created in 6 literal 24 hour days, as some seem to think. Oh, I am of the mind that it was more like billions of years during the creative periods.
    There are other things that some religious people who use the Bible for their basis, ( so they say) seem to believe and teach that I also do not agree with. Their interpretation does not agree with what I understand the Bible to be saying most of the time. oh, they may have a few things similar, but as a whole, we are oceans apart in our beliefs.
    And certainly, the Bible is not a science textbook. But if properly understood, I do believe that when questions of or statements made of a scientific nature as it applies to creation, etc., the Bible is correct. As I said, there are many who argue that the Bible 'says' or 'teaches' things that I don't necessarily agree with. There is a plethora of false doctrines out there, (and they may say the same about mine) and even many 'Christians' are not in agreement on what it really teaches.
    However, there is one group that is of a global scope, and in over 700 languages and dialects, that DO agree on the teachings of the Bible. But then, going back to Biblical understanding, 1 Corinthians 1:10 tells us that the true faith will 'speak in agreement, with no divisions among them'. That would be the group that I identify with, and that is no small feat, actually, when it is considered in the scope of the divisive world in which we live today.
    From my perspective, that could only happen with God's Spirit directing the nearing 9 million peoples around the world of all nationalities, language groups, tribal affiliations, races and socio-economic groupings existing in peace together today in unity.

    thanks for the pleasant exchange of ideas,
    peace to you

    (quote)
     
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  9. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)

    Hi

    A few things to consider concerning the earth and mankind , if you will...
    “To Jehovah the heavens belong, but the earth he has given to the sons of men.”—Psalm 115:16.

    Genesis 2:7 And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person.

    God created Adam and settled him in the garden of Eden “to cultivate it and to take care of it.” (Genesis 2:15)
    Later, God created a wife for Adam—Eve.
    God commanded the couple: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it.” (Genesis 1:28)
    Clearly, God “did not create [the earth] simply for nothing, [but] formed it even to be inhabited.”—Isaiah 45:18.

    Matthew 5:5
    “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

    Psalm 37:29
    The righteous will possess the earth,And they will live forever on it.

    Psalm 72:8
    He will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.

    Proverbs 2:21
    For only the upright will reside in the earth,And the blameless will remain in it.

    Proverbs 2:22
    As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth,And the treacherous will be torn away from it.

    Ecclesiastes 1:4
    A generation is going, and a generation is coming,But the earth remains forever.


    Do these scriptures help to understand that mankind will always reside on the earth?

    may you have peace

    (quote)
     
  10. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Well that's fine if Jehovah's Witnesses want to believe that.

    But none of those scriptures specify fleshy bodies. It is my understanding that these scriptures refer to the spiritual life after the end of our time in flesh.

    We will just have to agree to disagree as I would imagine neither of us will be moved by a debate. The only thing to do is wait and see who is correct. ;)
     
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  11. Shia Islam

    Shia Islam Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
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    So are saying that there is no Good and Evil when it comes to people?

    Are you claiming that all people are good?
     
  12. Daisies4me

    Daisies4me Active Member

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    (quote)
    Hi
    I see. Well, it does say 'man' and that they were created from the dust of the earth. To me, that means humans. But you may not agree with me, nor I you, as you so aptly stated.
    In my studies, I learned that the spirit creatures were all created long before the earth was created, and mankind is created 'lower than the angels', and are not seen with human eyes.

    Spirit creatures are much more powerful, and can see humans and can traverse the earth as well as the heavens, whereas mankind is limited to the vicinity of the earth and in a much more limited existence. just my thoughts on the matter..
    Thanks for the exchange of ideas.
    I do think that we will find out in due time...

    peace to you
    (quote)
     
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  13. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    There is a
    You have not outlined in any detail what your specific beliefs are or why you think they are true. I usually request a detailed description of what a person believes and why they believe it so there is no confusion in the discussion. I have found that there are so many versions of Christianity, and so many nuances believed by individual Christians, that without that information, I can spend hours with a discussion and then be told "that's not MY god". So minimally, I would need to know all the claimed attributes of the proposed deity. You have to keep in mind that I see your god in the same light that you see all other gods.

    That being said.......

    Well, "Speaking in agreement with no divisions between" them could apply to most any group, since even if you took a small group out of any given denomination who agreed, then you have the same thing......a group that now agrees. That even could be said of groups of non-religious people. So by your logic on that, a group of atheists who agree on things must have the truth. This is a logical fallacy, actually. The truthfulness of a proposition does not depend upon the number of people who think it is true.

    It can even be true if no one believes it is true.

    I would point out to you, also, that from my point of view, the Bible is nothing more than a collection of short stories arbitrarily compiled out of dozens or perhaps hundreds of others by a small group of people who had their own religious and political ends in mind. For it to be quoted as if it came from the mind of a god, or even indicated the presence of a god, you first have to establish that the god exists, and then you have to establish that said god had anything to do with the stories in the Bible. So you would have a lot of work ahead of you. After two millennia, professional apologists who have devoted their lives to the task have come up with nothing of merit on these two key points.

    Now, to be fair, I really don't know what sort of evidence would convince me of the existence of a god. but it is reasonable to assume that a god would know what would be required and if it wished me to know that it existed, then it would provide me with the evidence. Faith certainly won't do it. Faith is to me the rough equivalent of gullibility, because there is nothing one cannot believe on faith alone. Faith is evident in virtually every religion, as are prophecy, miracles, visions, personal experiences, and so on. so none of those things carry much weight in determining the truth of a claim, else all religions are true. And if we can agree on anything, certainly we can agree that they can't all be true.

    I can say that the god presented in the Bible is not a god that I would deem worthy of my worship even if it were real. I find too many distasteful things in his character and actions.

    And, again, all THAT being said, I would be happy to continue this discussion with you if you feel up to it and would enjoy such a thing.

    Let me pose some questions to you:
    1. Why are you a Christian and not a Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist, etc?
    2. What would it take for you to not believe? (Big question, take your time.....)
    3. Do you only use the New Testament, or do you believe the Old testament is also true?
    4. What, outside of the Bible itself, leads you to believe it's claims are true?
    5. What evidence, outside of the Bible itself, indicates to you that any god at all really exists?

    I may challenge your answers, so take your time. There is no hurry. If you don't feel you can articulate your positions well enough and/or just don't care to be challenged, just answer them anyway and I will keep my own analysis to myself. Let me know which you prefer. Some people like the back and forth and some do not. As is evidenced on this forum, discussions can become somewhat intense at times. I prefer to keep the emotional element out of it as much as possible. It clouds logic.

    Thanks again for your posts.
     
    #333 Milton Platt, Oct 15, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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  14. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    AS I see it, God's system isn't bringing a sword either. The entire system is geared toward education through our free choices and actions. On the other hand if one makes bad choices, one can choose some hard lessons for oneself in order to discover what one is really choosing for others.
     
  15. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    I'm an atheist....I was just paraphrasing the man himself. Maybe he was lying, I don't know.
     
  16. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Since we are all children of God and God loves Unconditionally, I would say all people are good. On the other hand, are any bad choices really good? I see it as a matter of knowledge and intelligence. When one understands all sides, one will make the right choices. Sure there are smart people making bad choices, however seems they are not that smart in some areas.

    Now one can tell someone what they think is good or bad, however it seems it's not until one lives that lesson that the bad choice is no longer a viable choice to make.

    So what is there to do? People who make bad choices are to be educated until they really understand it is a bad choice. This eliminates the anger and hate which seldom brings good results for anyone. When you make others evil ,bad, or lower than you, it breeds the lower level of anger and hate, then keeps one from the higher level which is God. Sad so many religions count on making others seem bad so that their follower can feel good about themselves. Is this in itself a lesson many are choosing for themselves today? Perhaps that is why many people are hurt by religion and what they do.

    This brings the question: Isn't religion supposed to be and at least attempt to act like God?? I assume they are trying to do the best they can. On the other hand, they are choosing the lessons for themselves regardless of any beliefs they might choose to have.

    Given enough time, everyone learns. There is no time limit on learning.
     
  17. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Wow! I rated your post 'friendly', but I just had to comment further.

    I hope @Daisies4me replies to you - maybe she has already - but I can tell you that, when it comes to anything in the Scriptures, we "speak in agreement" -- and I don't even know her. We simply worship the same God, the one that Jesus worshipped (John 20:17). That in itself is a uniting factor.

    The Scripture you quoted, about "speaking in agreement" (1 Corinthians 1:10) actually says that "all" should do so.

    Now, Daisy and I may not have the same favorite color, or movie, or hobby, etc., etc., but when it comes to the Scriptures, our understanding is the same, I can assure you!

    I'm glad you exhibit an open mind! Great!

    Take care.
     
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  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Revelation 21:3-4 "...the tent of God is with mankind..."
    Mankind is flesh.

    Daniel 7:13-14 "That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away;"

    Isaiah 11:6-9 ".... a little boy will lead them."

    This is God's purpose for mankind living forever here on Earth, in peace. "Thy will be done on Earth."
     
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  19. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I disagree. As long as we are in flesh bodies we can not stand in the presence of the Lord. Let alone live with Him here on Earth in fleshy bodies.

    1 Corinthians 1:29
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

    Revelation 21: 1-4 King James Version (KJV)
    21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Flesh is not eternal. It gets old it dies. The spirit is eternal. To stand with God in the aftermath of revelations requires us to be in flesh bodies, because our flesh cannot survive.
     
  20. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    Thank you. Most atheists do have an open mind. That is how they became atheists in most cases. Yes, there are some rude ones on here, as there are some rude Christians. In either case, they represent a very tiny portion of those groups, as a whole. I give both some leeway because the subject matter carries a lot of emotional baggage for some people. It is better just to look at the arguments and present refutations where there is disagreement.

    I don’t post much in this section because it is mostly people debating aspects of a religion with other religious people and not a debate about the existence of a given god or gods.

    Sometimes, however I will comment about a particular post out of curiosity.

    I hope Daisy responds as well. I would be interested in her answers to the questions. For an extended conversation, though, I would go to private messages bot in order to not hijack the thread here.
     
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