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Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That There Is A God

jonathan180iq

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
james bond said:
Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

Then the Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

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e8e6f829_circular_argumentmid.jpg
 
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suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Akivah said:
You made a statement "If there was a God, he wouldn't allow pain and suffering." All I want to know is the basis for your belief.
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The basis for this belief is...

I prefer my God to not allow pain and suffering... Because pain and suffering is bad.
 
Akivah

Akivah

Well-Known Member
suncowiam said:
The basis for this belief is...

I prefer my God to not allow pain and suffering... Because pain and suffering is bad.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. It is your personal belief.

For the rest of us, we rely on a bible (or other holy book) to tell us about G-d. There is no place in the Tanakh in which G-d tells us that He doesn't allow pain & suffering.
 
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suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Akivah said:
Fair enough. It is your personal belief.

For the rest of us, we rely on the bible to tell us about G-d. There is no place in the Tanakh in which G-d tells us that he doesn't allow pain & suffering.
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Right... When discussing God, it is about personal belief which can have very little basis. :)
 
jonathan180iq

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
DavidFirth said:
You only think it is circular if you are already convinced that God does not exist.
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Not at all. It's circular logic regardless of one's faith.
Flaws in logic are flaws in logic, irrespective of the topic at hand.

127024-126515.jpg


If you have to open any argument by saying that you'll understand something better once you accept it as true, that's the very definition of circular logic... This is how it works whether we are talking about God or the best brand of peanut butter.
 
james bond

james bond

Well-Known Member
A Vestigial Mote said:
The saddest thing about this statement is that (proven by the tone and content of your posts in this and other threads) you actually HOPE that there are consequences in store for non-believers. You actually wish us to suffer for eternity, and I expect you think you'll be in "heaven" chumming it up with "God", while you both look down on all the atheists in "hell" and laugh together riotously.

That's the kind of believer you are. Vindictive, sadistic and judgmental, yet delusionally considering yourself sincerely pious.
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Is it just me that hope non-believers get the consequences? I think I'm just saying one has to accept the consequences for their actions. Isn't this what the original sin was about? I think it was about selfishness because Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge and disobey God, yet they were tempted and gave in. Even before that, when there were no humans, the angels in heaven rebelled and disobeyed God. What did they get? They got a place for punishment in hell. Does God hope that angels and humans get the consequences? No, he hopes that all goes well and everyone obeys and worships him for all his power, glory and kingdom forever. Thus, isn't this just your thinking? Instead of believing in God, you believe an all-knowing and prescient God is evil and does not exist. You disavow God. Thus, he does not exist. When you do this, isn't it your own thinking and doing and not God, the believers or I?

To paraphrase my question, isn't being forced to believe the only way all atheists will believe in God? They have free will, but choose not to believe, so they can only be forced if all is to believe. It's like they have to be turned into programmed robots. I think the best we can do is persuade non-believers to be open minded and have faith. Then God begins to exist and one sees the power, glory and kingdom forever of God. He's all around us. Right in front of your nose.

>>That's the kind of believer you are. Vindictive, sadistic and judgmental, yet delusionally considering yourself sincerely pious.<<

I dunno. We all have this morbid curiosity if someone is going to be executed. This happened during the times when capital punishment was made public. I don't think the viewers were vindictive, sadistic and sincerely pious. They may have been judgmental since the perpetrator was judged guilty. Do I wish to see or hear the sinners receive their punishment? I don't think so and I don't think we will. The believers have another destination and will be busy preparing for it.
 
james bond

james bond

Well-Known Member
Stevicus said:
How so? You asked in your thread title if pain and suffering is the only way to convince atheists that there is a God. You also included an article which stated that "a faith based on miracles is not a mature faith," but the same could be said about a faith based on indoctrination. It's not a mature faith, and perhaps it's even less mature than a faith based on actually witnessing miracles.
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Maybe I have to explain further in that I meant convincing ALL atheists that God exists. They would have to be forced because their faith is no God exists. One could just continue to disavow God for any reason. Of course, this isn't the way God designed it. He gave everyone free will and they make their own choice. At first, he gave a negative warning with the Tree of Knowledge. This time, he's giving a positive warning with John 3:16.

>>but the same could be said about a faith based on indoctrination. It's not a mature faith, and perhaps it's even less mature than a faith based on actually witnessing miracles.<<

I wasn't referring to indoctrination I wasn't referring to conversion. I agree that I wasn't talking about a mature faith either. A mature faith is one who finds faith for themselves. The topic I was talking about is convincing all atheists that God exists. Just making them all realize an unproveable God is here.
 
james bond

james bond

Well-Known Member
Nowhere Man said:
That pretty much takes care of every character in the Bible. None of them required any type of faith in its narrative.

But I agree. You certainly do need faith because that's all there is.
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>>You certainly do need faith because that's all there is.<<

This is where I think your thinking gets weird. Instead, faith led me to God and I realized one needs God and that all that he gave us is here now and then forever. God's love is sublime. It's everything to make us happy.
 
james bond

james bond

Well-Known Member
Quetzal said:
If your target audience is an atheist, why are you going to solely rely on a document they actively reject? I would imagine that is the very definition of insanity.
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I guess I should make clear. It's not I trying to convince atheists. It's God trying to convince atheists in the afterlife since he can't do it in this life.
 
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