Is no religion better than religion?

[Deeje]

Obliviously not considering that science isn't irrational, unsubstantiated, nor detrimental.

Hmmmm....science believes that amoebas turned into dinosaurs and then dinosaurs turned into chickens.....and that's rational?

Science has absolutely no proof that their evolutionary process ever took place except in their imagination...so not substantiated.

Not detrimental? Everything that causes harm to the human race was delivered by scientists.

I think you need to rethink your position....

 

[Deeje]

Religion can also be about hatred, prejudice, violence and war.

Religion should be about love. That is what Jesus taught after all, did He not?

Mark 12:30-31

Religion is the most divisive element on earth next to politics.

Religion SHOULD be about love, but how many actually are?

Jesus taught lots of things but not many will follow all his teachings...they just pick the convenient things and ignore the rest.

 

[Father Heathen]

Hmmmm....science believes that amoebas turned into dinosaurs and then dinosaurs turned into chickens.....and that's rational?

Science has absolutely no proof that their evolutionary process ever took place except in their imagination...so not substantiated.

These same questions have been asked and answered a thousand times here before. If you were genuinely interested in answers, they're readily available and easy to find. Of course, the truth is that you have no actual interest in learning or understanding anything. You should reevaluate your faith if it requires wallowing in willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty to sustain it.

Not detrimental? Everything that causes harm to the human race was delivered by scientists.

I think you need to rethink your position....

If this is how you feel then why are you using technology (such as the device you're using to access this forum)?

 

[Marcion]

Religion can also be about hatred, prejudice, violence and war.

Religion should be about love. That is what Jesus taught after all, did He not?

Mark 12:30-31

Religion is also about proselytizing and wanting to convert people who are in other paths. It is also about a lack of true spiritual philosopy and practices and relying blindly on religious theories because these were spoken by religious leaders or religious authors.

Spiritual philosophies and spiritual movements are about real practices and real love, when religion steps in this central ideal always becomes sidetracked.

 

[Deeje]

These same questions have been asked and answered a thousand times here before. If you were genuinely interested in answers, they're readily available and easy to find. Of course, the truth is that you have no actual interest in learning or understanding anything. You should reevaluate your faith if it requires wallowing in willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty to sustain it.

Now this is what I find interesting about those who think science has proven its theory....they have proven nothing because no one can prove that evolution, on the scale proposed by scientists, ever took place. What they can "prove" through experimentation is adaption.....which only produces variety within one taxonomic family. There is never a new taxonomy ever seen. It is assumed but cannot be demonstrated.

The intellectual dishonesty is in believing something based on faith alone, whilst denigrating people who are doing the same. Evolutionary science is a belief system......there is no more "proof" for it than I can produce for my Creator. If you were genuinely interested in the truth, you too would investigate just how much "proof" there actually is compared to how much is suggestion, speculation and outright fantasy. I don't believe that the wallowing in willful ignorance is all on one side.

If this is how you feel then why are you using technology (such as the device you're using to access this forum)?

That would imply that I was anti-science...which I assure you that I am not. I just accept what science can prove....not what they imagine without a shred of real evidence and feed to a gullible population. Computer generated images are not evidence.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Hmmmm....science believes that amoebas turned into dinosaurs and then dinosaurs turned into chickens.....and that's rational? .

Yes. We have facts that point to this-- the conclusion did not come out of a vacuum-- in direct contrast to ALL religious claims, which did...

Science has absolutely no proof that their evolutionary process ever took place except in their imagination...so not substantiated..

Absolutely false. Just because YOU never studied the facts which show evolution is true, does not mean it isn't true.

What you are experiencing is a Logical Fallacy: Argument from Ignorance.

Not detrimental? Everything that causes harm to the human race was delivered by scientists..

Absolutely false. 9 of 10 things that are harmful? Come from Zealot-Religions.

I think you need to rethink your position....

That's so precious: You used the word "think" in conjunction with blind faith (religion)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So, hypothetically speaking, if the world suddenly underwent some devastating global catastrophe and the vast majority of people, rightly or wrongly, decided that science was irrational, unsubstantiated and detrimental to society at large you would abandon science?

No. Because even IF all the discoveries of Science were eliminated from the Human Lexicon of Knowledge?

Given sufficient time, ALL of these discoveries would be re-discovered.

That is kind of how Science works: it discovers what is already there.

True-- humans may not call the Theory Of Gravity by that name. It might become Postulate Of Falling Objects instead.

But, eventually, humans will re-discover Gravity and how it works on Earth.

Can you say the same about any religion? If suddenly, all religions-- all over the world-- vanished overnight, and all their holy books destroyed? And nobody remembers a single idea from any?

Would the SAME religions re-emerge among Humans?

I think the answer to that is a definitive NO. Proof is the 1000's of different flavors of Religion --- Within The Same Religion!

And that spells out the essential difference between science and religion.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

To the OP: I voted "We should have a low threshold for leaving religion"

I am a firm believer that everyone ought to have the right to believe exactly how they please-- if they truly wish to worship garden gnomes? Who am I to say they cannot?

But. And it's a big But.

Nobody--but Nobody should get the right to force someone else to behave in a certain way, JUST because they think their Garden Gnome compels them to.

Now, obviously, this must fit within a larger framework of Morality, which can be summed up by the Classic Golden Rule: (my favorite iteration of it is)

Do No Harm, Otherwise, Do As You Like.

So. Religions? They may exist, so long as there is a peaceful, and non-violent avenue to leave, should someone wish to.

Because, who doesn't like caring for, and feeding Garden Gnomes? I mean, their little red hats are so cute!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@adrian009

I can't remember where but you asked why is it dangerous that one medicine be distributed to heal others?

A short answer is like in the medical world, one medicine doesn't work for all people. Even with seizures, there are hundreds of medications depending on the type and location in the brain.

Spirituality isn't different. The best way I feel we can heal is to support and help each other with the faith they follow. So instead of a christian sharing jesus to help others, they would help the other with their belief, taking interest in theirs, and focusing on them.

It wouldn't make sense to share christ with a Buddhist if he is hurt. If the other is familiar with The Dharma or take interest in it to help the buddhist, that would be a better route.

Meet them where they are at. You do more damage otherwise.

 

[Earthling]

No. Because even IF all the discoveries of Science were eliminated from the Human Lexicon of Knowledge?

You atheists are so full of **** it's pathetic. Just read over your stuff after you write it and notice how you spout pure **** and then change your course like a robot with a short in it that you have to slap the **** out of occasionally just to see it veer back on course.

 

[CG Didymus]

@adrian009

I can't remember where but you asked why is it dangerous that one medicine be distributed to heal others?

A short answer is like in the medical world, one medicine doesn't work for all people. Even with seizures, there are hundreds of medications depending on the type and location in the brain.

Spirituality isn't different. The best way I feel we can heal is to support and help each other with the faith they follow. So instead of a christian sharing jesus to help others, they would help the other with their belief, taking interest in theirs, and focusing on them.

It wouldn't make sense to share christ with a Buddhist if he is hurt. If the other is familiar with The Dharma or take interest in it to help the buddhist, that would be a better route.

Meet them where they are at. You do more damage otherwise.

The medicine thing is such a great analogy. The underlying assumption here is that the Baha'i Faith is the medicine that can heal the worlds problems... But, for those of us that studied it, and went to Baha'i gatherings, and learned about what they say, and then didn't join? Why would that be?

If I had a disease and turned down the medicine that could potentially cure that disease, that would be stupid. Unless, I read about the after-effects... that I read it didn't work in all cases. Well then, that's different. I'd be cautious about trusting that doctor and get a second opinion. I'd look into other remedies, even natural ones.

Same with religion, if the religion tells me I'm sick, what are they proposing as a cure? Sometimes it'll make me sicker and maybe it will cure that other disease but give me some other one.

 

[CG Didymus]

Religion is about truth, not kumbaya moments.

You'd think religion should be about truth, but there's so many "truths". And all of them say they are the "real" truth. And some of the best times I've had in any of the religions I got involved in were the "kumbaya" moments... especially the times when all of held hands and sang "kumbaya" or "This little light of mine" or "Light my fire." Okay, maybe that last moment wasn't involving a religion, but it still was a significant spiritual moment.

But, anyway, after those moments of coming together in prayers, or chants, or songs, and feeling the love between all the people, then comes the message... What doe this group believe? Sadly, I left all of them. The "truth" they taught was unbelievable. Since most or all of them negate the other beliefs of other religion, it comes down to one. That one has to be totally right, because they say something about the others is wrong... or even completely wrong.

The Baha'i Faith almost affirms all the other religions, but is essentially saying they are more right, because they have the latest message from an "unknowable", "invisible" God. Do they? Are they the "medicine" the world needs? Have all the other religions lost their potency and healing powers? Or, worse yet, have they become a toxic spiritual poison?

 

[shmogie]

You'd think religion should be about truth, but there's so many "truths". And all of them say they are the "real" truth. And some of the best times I've had in any of the religions I got involved in were the "kumbaya" moments... especially the times when all of held hands and sang "kumbaya" or "This little light of mine" or "Light my fire." Okay, maybe that last moment wasn't involving a religion, but it still was a significant spiritual moment.

But, anyway, after those moments of coming together in prayers, or chants, or songs, and feeling the love between all the people, then comes the message... What doe this group believe? Sadly, I left all of them. The "truth" they taught was unbelievable. Since most or all of them negate the other beliefs of other religion, it comes down to one. That one has to be totally right, because they say something about the others is wrong... or even completely wrong.

The Baha'i Faith almost affirms all the other religions, but is essentially saying they are more right, because they have the latest message from an "unknowable", "invisible" God. Do they? Are they the "medicine" the world needs? Have all the other religions lost their potency and healing powers? Or, worse yet, have they become a toxic spiritual poison?

Baha´i is a belief structure that worships a God that is unable to clearly define himself for humanity. It affirms other religions in the way it wants to affirm them, not as they would affirm themselves.

Mohammed took pieces of Christianity and Judaism, the ones he liked and that fulfilled his purposes and melded them together into Islam.

Baha´i has taken pieces from all over the world, to them the good parts, melded them together and created a religion that has something for everyone.

Just because something feels good, that doesn´t mean it is true as well.

God defines truth, and because there may be something in that truth that makes us uncomfortable doesn´t make it untrue.

God clearly defined truth, and Himself. First, God defined himself as love.

God clearly defined truth, and it begins in the Book of Genesis and ends in the last word of the book of Revelation.

I am a primitive Christian, that is, my faith is solely and completely based upon the new Testament unfettered by denominational blather.

I hope to hold to the truth as given to the Apostles, and worship and
believe as did the primitive Apostolic Church, the Truth

Christ asked a question, ¨what is truth ?¨ Then answered it, ¨ I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me¨.

There is only ONE truth. There is only ONE way to God.

It is all very simple, accept it or reject it. As my mother said too many times for me to count, ¨you can´t have your cake and eat it too¨. You can´t have pieces of all religions that combined feel good, yet also have the only, single, revealed truth. The concept is counter exclusive

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You atheists are so full of **** it's pathetic. Just read over your stuff after you write it and notice how you spout pure **** and then change your course like a robot with a short in it that you have to slap the **** out of occasionally just to see it veer back on course.

That's so cute!

IF your beastly religion was wiped out? It would never come back EVER.

But. If ALL science were wiped out? ALL WOULD RETURN.

Because science is based on FACT.

Religion --- ESPECIALLY YOURS -- is based on horse hockey.

Your ugly words above? Are all the proof anyone needs....

 

[Dawnofhope]

Religion is the most divisive element on earth next to politics.

Religion SHOULD be about love, but how many actually are?

Jesus taught lots of things but not many will follow all his teachings...they just pick the convenient things and ignore the rest.

In New Zealand we are a multicultural country. We have peoples from all round the world and from all faiths. Its not the Hindus, Buddhists or even Muslims that feature most highly in our statistics on crime and unemployment. Perhaps the reason that both of our countries are amongst the most peaceful is most Christians don't take their religion as seriously as they used and would be considered nominal.

In regards politics, the reality is countries need good governance and collective decision to ensure our needs are met whether its about repairing road, what health services to provide or running a school. Governments in both of our countries have been successful in providing these services for our people. That includes a pension system that allows our elderly to be supported.

Jesus didn't really have much to say about the principles of how countries should be run, the harmony between science and religion and managing racial and religious diversity. That's not surprising given His Message was two thousand years ago at a very different historic point.

Did Jesus not ask us to be aware of the signs of our time?
Matthew 16:3
Matthew 24:3-31
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009

I can't remember where but you asked why is it dangerous that one medicine be distributed to heal others?

A short answer is like in the medical world, one medicine doesn't work for all people. Even with seizures, there are hundreds of medications depending on the type and location in the brain.

Spirituality isn't different. The best way I feel we can heal is to support and help each other with the faith they follow. So instead of a christian sharing jesus to help others, they would help the other with their belief, taking interest in theirs, and focusing on them.

It wouldn't make sense to share christ with a Buddhist if he is hurt. If the other is familiar with The Dharma or take interest in it to help the buddhist, that would be a better route.

Meet them where they are at. You do more damage otherwise.

As physicians we need to properly diagnose the illness and then provide the remedy. These days we try to tailor what we do to ensure what we do exhibits cultural competency. From the perspective I totally agree with you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You atheists are so full of **** it's pathetic. Just read over your stuff after you write it and notice how you spout pure **** and then change your course like a robot with a short in it that you have to slap the **** out of occasionally just to see it veer back on course.

LOL. Mate have a cuppa tea, breath, relax, pray and then post. You can't convince anyone of your truth with these kinda responses.

 

[Deeje]

Yes. We have facts that point to this-- the conclusion did not come out of a vacuum

First of all, as any scientist will tell you, science has no "facts" about any of it....they only have "evidence" which they "interpret" to support their theory. How else would they interpret it?

Absolutely false. Just because YOU never studied the facts which show evolution is true, does not mean it isn't true.

There are no facts to study......just so you know what the scientists themselves are saying....there are a bunch of bones and a whole lot of assumption and suggestion....none of which is provable....ask them.

What you are experiencing is a Logical Fallacy: Argument from Ignorance.

Oh please.....are you trying to sound as if you actually know what you're talking about?

Absolutely false. 9 of 10 things that are harmful? Come from Zealot-Religions.

No, sorry....you are dead wrong. This planet is drowning in plastic pollution.....all of which was developed by industrial science trying to use up by-products from the petrochemical industry.....our food is being poisoned by insecticides and artificial chemicals...all of which were developed by biological scientists.
Weapons of mass destruction were created by scientists and engineers using explosives developed by chemical science....splitting the atom gave us nuclear weapons.

Our drinking water is polluted by chemical runoff from the land into rivers and water sources....and additives meant to keep bacteria from killing us, such as chlorine is gradually poisoning us. Its death by degree, caused by man's mismanagement of his only home and his greed for wealth and power. Many branches of science are involved in the desecration of this planet and everything on it. Add climate change and we are virtually, toast.....all hail science.

Religion pales by comparison. Besides, any religion that teaches that its OK to kill, is the wrong religion IMO.

That's so precious: You used the word "think" in conjunction with blind faith (religion)

Could that be why we never hear that word from you?

I understand why you don't like religion because you think its "blind" but you really have no idea how "blind" your own 'religion' is. Try checking out your "proofs" and bring them back to us.....I'm sure we'd all like to be dazzled by your knowledge of science....just make sure that you can prove what you say, otherwise you have a "blind" belief just like you think we have.

That is kind of how Science works: it discovers what is already there.

And nobody put them there...they just "poofed" themselves into existence...like life....and the universe.....

 

[Deeje]

In New Zealand we are a multicultural country. We have peoples from all round the world and from all faiths. Its not the Hindus, Buddhists or even Muslims that feature most highly in our statistics on crime and unemployment. Perhaps the reason that both of our countries are amongst the most peaceful is most Christians don't take their religion as seriously as they used and would be considered nominal.

Yes, our countries do mirror one another in many ways. I know that Aussies are very secular and many mainstream churches have closed down everywhere, turned into art centres, boutique housing and real estate agencies.

The entertainment oriented churches are gaining ground because people love to be entertained and to have their emotions whipped up enough to donate lots of money.

In regards politics, the reality is countries need good governance and collective decision to ensure our needs are met whether its about repairing road, what health services to provide or running a school. Governments in both of our countries have been successful in providing these services for our people. That includes a pension system that allows our elderly to be supported.

The Bible says that there is no rulership except by God's permission. (Romans 13:1) Not that God set humans up to rule themselves, but that he knows that anarchy would dominate if there was no law and order with accountability. Jesus told us to be "no part of the world" because of who is its supreme ruler. (1 John 5:19; John 18:36) Satan told Jesus that rulership of this world had been handed over to him and that he could give authority to whomever he wished. (Luke 4:5-6) We all benefit when a government implements good policies, but no government has ever fulfilled the needs of all of its citizens. People are getting sick of governments taking care of themselves first.

Jesus didn't really have much to say about the principles of how countries should be run, the harmony between science and religion and managing racial and religious diversity. That's not surprising given His Message was two thousand years ago at a very different historic point.

Jesus' teachings were going to reach a very wide audience, so that is why we see this expression by the apostle Peter in Acts 10:24-25...."Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Peter was the first of the apostles to welcome Gentiles into the Christians arrangement. (Acts 15:14)

Did Jesus not ask us to be aware of the signs of our time?
Matthew 16:3
Matthew 24:3-31
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

He sure did.....Matthew 16:3...."You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but the signs of the times you cannot interpret." The signs were all there to help the Jews to see that the end of the Jewish system was getting close. Jesus told his disciples that when they saw "the disgusting thing standing in the holy place" they were to flee to the mountains and not go back to pick up their belongings, just to be content to escape with their lives.

Those who heeded Jesus' words must have wondered if they had jumped the gun a bit because the withdrawal of the Romans that facilitated their escape, lasted about four years. They had left everything behind in Jerusalem and it must have been a temptation to go back and pick up a few things...or to assume that they had got it wrong and go back to assume their former lives. But without warning the Romans came back and laid siege to the city again, trapping everyone inside and cutting off all their means of survival. It was a cruel and protracted death with some forced to eat their own children. How grateful were those Christians who obediently stayed put in the mountains when Jesus told them to flee. External appearances did not give away the imminence of the Roman attack. He said the end of the present system of things would also come without warning. (Matthew 24:42-44)

Most especially are we to be aware of the "sign" of Jesus' "presence" (parousia) and "the conclusion of the system of things". (Matthew 24:3-14) This had a minor fulfillment on first century Jerusalem but Jesus pointed forward to his return....and the final conclusion of the present system of things.

And Ecclesiastes 3 highlights that there is an appointed time for all things. Solomon went on to say in verses 17-20...
"So I said in my heart: “The true God will judge both the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every activity and every action.”
18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

The 'signs of the times' mean something to those who study Bible prophesy. God has appointed a time for all things to take place, just as he said, so Christians today must also "flee to the mountains" in some figurative sense because they are no longer in one geographical location. I believe that we will be told what we need to do by the ones appointed by Christ to do so. (Matthew 24:45)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

First of all, as any scientist will tell you, science has no "facts" about any of it....they only have "evidence" which they "interpret" to support their theory. How else would they interpret it?

.

What do you think evidence actually is? But a fact...

Do you need to go back to dictionary.com?

There are no facts to study......just so you know what the scientists themselves are saying....there are a bunch of bones and a whole lot of assumption and suggestion....none of which is provable....ask them..

See above: Evidence IS FACT. I'm so sorry, but your lack of education in science does not mean science is wrong.

It's obvious you have never, even a little, studied actual evolutionary theory, or the FACTS of evolution.

Oh please.....are you trying to sound as if you actually know what you're talking about?

.

I do. It's sad that you don't have a clue what I am talking about....

No, sorry....you are dead wrong. This planet is drowning in plastic pollution.....all of which was developed by industrial science trying to use up by-products from the petrochemical industry.....our food is being poisoned by insecticides and artificial chemicals...all of which were developed by biological scientists..

Nonsense. I bet you think vaccinations are "poison" too?

And that Homeopathy (otherwise known as purified water) is real too?

Weapons of mass destruction were created by scientists and engineers using explosives developed by chemical science....splitting the atom gave us nuclear weapons..

Yeah. So?

Our drinking water is polluted by chemical runoff from the land into rivers and water sources....and additives meant to keep bacteria from killing us, such as chlorine is gradually poisoning us. .

LMAO! A mix of pseudo-science, nonsense and a wee bit of factoid to wash it all down.... !

Cholorine is so NOT a gradual poison-- it will kill you QUICK? Or it has zero measurable effect. There is no in-between with this stuff. Again, you demonstrate near total ignorance of ... reality.

Its death by degree, caused by man's mismanagement of his only home and his greed for wealth and power. Many branches of science are involved in the desecration of this planet and everything on it. Add climate change and we are virtually, toast.....all hail science.

.

LMAO! You are talking about POLITICIANS who are drunk with power....

Religion pales by comparison. Besides, any religion that teaches that its OK to kill, is the wrong religion IMO..

Religion is the root-cause of war, homophobia, hate of anyone "different", racial genocide, etc.

Religion poisons everything.

Could that be why we never hear that word from you?

.

What word? More lies from you?

I understand why you don't like religion because you think its "blind" but you really have no idea how "blind" your own 'religion' is. .

I have no religion, not how YOU mean the word.

Sorry.

Try checking out your "proofs" and bring them back to us.....I'm sure we'd all like to be dazzled by your knowledge of science....just make sure that you can prove what you say, otherwise you have a "blind" belief just like you think we have..

LMAO! Oh. My. that is the funniest sh-0-- I've seen all day long! And I've been on protЯump sites!

And nobody put them there...they just "poofed" themselves into existence...like life....and the universe.....

That's what your religion says-- *poof* there's the earth. *poof* there's all the plants. *poof* there's the SUN a day or so later...

*poof*
*poof*
*poof*
*poof*

That's your bible's claim. That is MAGIC *poofing*.

Science never makes such a claim; science does not support MAGIC POOFING.

That's religion.