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Is nature infinite and eternal?

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by KelseyR, May 26, 2019.

  1. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    I believe that it is. If we apply burden of proof to the question it is readily seen that constricting all of nature to one region of space or one span of time would constitute an extraordinary claim. Or do you think that its size and duration should remain a mystery until we can explore all of time and space? That would be a ridiculous task. Yes, this universe will expire- but there would be an infinite number of such existing side by side, and always.
     
  2. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    Everything rise and fall within in natur law (Dhamma) So even it look like it is eternal it is not :)
     
  3. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Well Kelsey that's a very good question. And yes the burden of proof is on the fanatic reductionists to prove that reality is contained by their brains.

    Now they believe like religious fanatics there are "laws" that determine reality. Although they tip their hand a bit at times and will say "we may have to change our laws of physics" as new evidence is discovered. These reductionists are insane with phds. I am not certain how they tie their shoes it must be behavioral like a seal barking at the wind.

    The actual physical may possibly be larger than the word physical and this is not contained by the term physical created by a talking chimp brain about something. Just a guess on my part. I could say that the term god follows the same rule as previous but then that starts to get confusing for many since most are convinced they are separate, so says some religions. Whom btw are atheists experts on that topic!!!!! Ha...
     
    #3 David T, May 26, 2019
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
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  4. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    Everything that is of finite size is of finite duration, This is natural law. The one exception would be the totality of all things, the All.
     
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  5. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    Thanks for noticing the importance of this question. Positing a default position in infinite expanse and longevity for nature (the physical plane) puts it in direct competition with God for the twin abilities to create life and offer eternal existence. We may also note complicity between theists and empiricists in their obstructing reason on this matter.
     
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  6. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    I understand we see things differently, and that is ok :) personally i follow buddhist cosmology and not science of today. So even space is not seen in same way as today science.
     
  7. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Sometimes the only real and honest answer is "Nobody knows. :shrug:".

    Frankly, I'm not sure that words like infinite and eternal are sufficiently well described to understand, much less applied to reality.
    Tom
     
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  8. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Indeed it is Just in regards to the word physical. We aren't the Masters of the physical we are participants in the physical. Disembodied thinking is common. Heraclitus said " the logos is common but everyone seems to have their own understanding."

    Generally the most common starting point for many folk starts with (I,) which leads to (believe) (don't believe) (agnostic) which then leads to (xyz) nonsense. Breathing is way way underrated by such folk.

    Let's see mathmatically writtenwmight be fun someone should correct me on this.
    I + (believe)or(I don't believe)or(am agnostic)=xyz x pi. Thus each argument comes up with a different outcome basedb on pi as regards to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I really need help in the math equation writing department here. But the statement holds true regardless!
     
  9. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    'the prospect of eternal life'
    'the infinite mercy of God'

    If one party can regularly use these terms and think they have meaning I see no basis for them having an exclusive right to the terms. This would define hypocrisy and suggest the obstruction of truth. Fear of honest competition is a sickness theists suffer from.
     
    #9 KelseyR, May 26, 2019
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  10. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    "...Professor Stephen Hawking's final theory on the origin of the universe, which he worked on in collaboration with Professor Thomas Hertog from KU Leuven, has been published in the Journal of High Energy Physics.

    The theory of eternal inflation that Hawking and Hertog put forward is based on string theory: a branch of theoretical physics that attempts to reconcile gravity and general relativity with quantum physics, in part by describing the fundamental constituents of the universe as tiny vibrating strings. Their approach uses the string theory concept of holography, which postulates that the universe is a large and complex hologram: physical reality in certain 3-D spaces can be mathematically reduced to 2-D projections on a surface.

    Hawking and Hertog developed a variation of this concept of holography to project out the time dimension in eternal inflation. This enabled them to describe eternal inflation without having to rely on Einstein' theory. In the new theory, eternal inflation is reduced to a timeless state defined on a spatial surface at the beginning of time.

    "When we trace the evolution of our universe backwards in time, at some point we arrive at the threshold of eternal inflation, where our familiar notion of time ceases to have any meaning," said Hertog.

    Hawking's earlier 'no boundary theory' predicted that if you go back in time to the beginning of the universe, the universe shrinks and closes off like a sphere, but this new theory represents a step away from the earlier work. "Now we're saying that there is a boundary in our past," said Hertog.

    Hertog and Hawking used their new theory to derive more reliable predictions about the global structure of the universe. They predicted the universe that emerges from eternal inflation on the past boundary is finite and far simpler than the infinite fractal structure predicted by the old theory of eternal inflation.

    Their results, if confirmed by further work, would have far-reaching implications for the multiverse paradigm. "We are not down to a single, unique universe, but our findings imply a significant reduction of the multiverse, to a much smaller range of possible universes," said Hawking.

    This makes the theory more predictive and testable.

    Hertog now plans to study the implications of the new theory on smaller scales that are within reach of our space telescopes. He believes that primordial gravitational waves – ripples in space-time – generated at the exit from eternal inflation constitute the most promising "smoking gun" to test the model. The expansion of our universe since the beginning means such gravitational waves would have very long wavelengths, outside the range of the current LIGO detectors. But they might be heard by the planned European space-based gravitational wave observatory, LISA, or seen in future experiments measuring the cosmic microwave background...."

    Taming the multiverse—Stephen Hawking's final theory about the big bang
    by University of Cambridge

    https://phys.org/news/2018-05-multiversestephen-hawking-theory-big.html
     
    #10 Salvador, May 26, 2019
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
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  11. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I can't see how it can't be eternal.

    Still, nature always changes, so the form nature takes is finite. I suppose you could say the nature of nature is eternal.
     
  12. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    I do not dispute that. I've just never heard what you're saying put that way. Neat!

    I'm not surprised that you say so, and am inclined to agree. I wonder: Did you receive that proposition from some specific author or lecturer, or are you the author if it? [I'm interested in seeing what else the proposition's teacher said.]

    Exception?? The All is not of finite size and of finite duration? I agree completely, although I've been accused of being crackpot for that belief more than once.

    IMHO, there is no competition, if and only if speaking of "God the Father" in the first article of the Apostle's Creed. They are one and the same: infinite and eternal. My authority? Paul, who quotes Epictetus the Greek, in Acts 17:23--28.

    • ... this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives life and breath and everything to everyone. 26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 For in him we live and move about and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’

    Aye, ... bumbling conspiracy at best.
     
    #12 Terry Sampson, May 26, 2019
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  13. rocala

    rocala Active Member

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    Not sure I agree here. I think that in the context of the original question, Dhamma and nature are terms that can be used interchangeably.
     
  14. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    I do not disagree with your way of seeing it :) But in the way i understand it, Nature can means the physical world and within the physical world there is law of the nature. Action and reaction.
    And the dhamma is the teaching of the concequence of the actions, But ofcourse there is the other realms we must look at too. and this are non physical realms.
     
  15. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    What does dhamma teach about the benefits of actions?
     
  16. rocala

    rocala Active Member

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    This is the definition that I like, hence my post.

    1. Nature(n.)

      The existing system of things; the universe of matter, energy, time and space; the physical world; all of creation. Contrasted with the world of mankind, with its mental and social phenomena.
     
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  17. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    That good actions or deed lead to good living, where negative action or harming others lead to suffering and pain. The 4 noble truths teach us this.
    1. life is suffering (due to attachments)
    2. cause of suffering is craving and ignorance
    3. the cessation of suffering comes from cessation of craving
    4: cessation of suffering is by practicing the 8 folded path

    8 fold path is

    1. Right understanding (Samma ditthi)
    2. Right thought (Samma sankappa)
    3. Right speech (Samma vaca)
    4. Right action (Samma kammanta)
    5. Right livelihood (Samma ajiva)
    6. Right effort (Samma vayama)
    7. Right mindfulness (Samma sati)
    8. Right concentration (Samma samadhi)
     
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  18. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    What about healthy desires like taking care of your children, or helping your neighbor out.

    Is the eight fold path about avoidance, or transformation, or encouragement in healthy desires?
     
  19. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    From the 8 fold path one will see that compassion for all living being arise, so yes helping others is also a part of the buddhist way, and since i was 15 i took care of my father when he was sick from cancer, when he died in 2000 i had to take care of my mother who got depressed and ended up with breast cancer and liver cancer so when she died in 2013 i continued to cultivate buddhism, then in 2016 i met the woman who i am engaged with now, she is in a wheelchair and when she need help i help with all that is needed in the home. and in between all the helping i can cultivate the dhamma and meditate. so even i have not helped a lot of people yet i can say my life has been dedicated to helping both others and my self.
     
  20. KelseyR

    KelseyR The eternal optimist!

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    I don't think constructing an equation regarding preference for magic will undo the reasonableness of what I have proposed.
     
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