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Is modern Christianity off track?

Is modern Christianity off track?

  • No, my church is right, etc

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Jesus teaches through a parable that the shepherd risks leaving the healthy sheep to find the one. The Pharisees are the healthy sheep.

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Read Matthew 23.....The Pharisees were not spiritually "healthy" in any respect according to Jesus. You have to ignore a lot of scripture to say that. Who was responsible for Jesus' arrest...his illegal trial and subsequent murder?

When Jesus said..."forgive them Father for they know not what they do"...he was not speaking about the Jewish religious leaders, I assure you.

Jesus criticised Tradition -- the belief that the spirit passed from teacher to student. In other words he was against things like apostolic succession and seminaries. He considered them I think to be corrupting influences. He is not against having traditions but against the Tradition discipleship method. This he calls on the carpet and why because he is saying it is time for realization of Jeremiah 31. He is saying that old method of learning about the way is no more, that it is no longer best. He denounces Tradition, so of course the Pharisees seek to embarrass him.

I think he went way further than that. There was no "apostolic succession" or seminaries for Christians in the first century...there was a foretold apostasy however that was already "at work" before the apostles passed off the scene. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7) It grew into a juggernaut of fake Christianity that ended up engulfing the world. It is the "weeds"....just as Jesus said.

So no we do not need to correct each others doctrines, because that is not how things ought to work in a Jeremiah 31 World.

The correction comes from the inside, not the outside. We first have to take in knowledge and then we process that knowledge and either adopt it or reject it.

In the case of Israel, many misunderstand what it means to be a "Jew" in God's eyes.

Paul wrote..."For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

John the Baptist also had very stern things to say to the Pharisees....Matthew 3:9....."Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

What 'fruitage" did Israel produce?

Paul also called the members of Christ's congregation of both Jew and Gentiles, "the Israel of God". (Galatians 6:16)
As he said in Acts 15:14...."Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name."

Spiritual Jews are not just Jews born of a Jewish mother.....fleshly Israel was cast off and a new nation chosen who would produce the right fruits. Israel as a nation, never did. (Matthew 23:37-39)
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I think you misread my words or the intent behind them...the devil was out to spread lies and if he could convince people to accept a corrupted form of Christianity, that would prevent them for looking any further because they would already believe that what they have is the truth....but it never was...which is why Jesus will say to "many" at the judgment, "I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23)
So you think the pagans who never had a chance to hear of Jesus were actually better off, and that's why the devil would get together a church and the Bible?

Even those who go by scripture alone can be misled. Who interprets the scripture? Individuals? groups? charismatic leaders?
Of course I agree with you here, because I think almost everyone who goes by scripture alone or following a group fails to reach the kingdom of God.

Their only concern was for their own power and influence. They adopted pagan concepts just as Christendom did. "Hell" for example, was not a concept found in the Hebrew scriptures because the ancient Jews had no belief in an immortal soul. Jews believed in a full bodily resurrection in the future under Messiah's Kingdon on a "new earth" as God promised through their prophets. Isaiah 65:17 was reiterated by the apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:13 and John in Revelation 21:1.
As far as I know they also believed in bodily resurrection. What ever hell is it was a dump in Israel.

What they took was a corrupted version of the Bible's narrative. The only thing that remained close to the truth was the person of Jesus himself as a teacher...the rest was nothing close to the truth.....so if it wasn't the truth it might as well have been just another bunch of pagan ideas. The devil was laughing.
So you belive the devil is laughing now that he spread the Bible far and wide through his efforts, when not making a church we'd never have heard of it.

No I wasn't saying anything like that. I wish you wouldn't misinterpret what I say. That creates a strawman that you then proceed to knock down. God did not plan what the devil did. Satan was originally a faithful angel who was given a position of responsibility in the Garden of Eden. He abused that position and the trust that God had in him. God allowed what satan did to play out as he knew it would.....because he knew that object lessons teach so much better than words, which the first pair ignored. And here we are nearing the end of the allotted time for satan to do his thing.....he has intensified his efforts...but so has God's and his faithful servants.
But if what you said was true then the devil was doing the work of God by spreading the message. It's not what you believe, of course. I believe the devil as interpreted is essentially a pagan idea also. Did the ancient Jews not believe satan was still working for God?

Of course being a pure monotheist I don't believe there could be a force that can oppose God at all, since that would be a "god", just like Loki, Suteh, Louhi, and the various devils of most religions of the world.

They did a terrible job then. Both the idea of an immortal soul and hell, both came from Hellenism.
Since you aren't going to believe anything about the pharisees I say, ask the modern day Jews here if they believed in bodily resurrection or not and whether they or their modern day followers believe in hell.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I would also ask why the devil would made the effort to have prophecy became true. If the devil knew the prophecy, he could easily avoid it unless the devil was in fact (a)purely stupid or (b)working for what you believe is God's plan.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Of course I agree with you here, because I think almost everyone who goes by scripture alone or following a group fails to reach the kingdom of God.

There has to be a way to become a citizen of the Kingdom, because God would never promise something we cannot achieve. What do you believe qualifies us for entry into God's Kingdom?

As far as I know they also believed in bodily resurrection. What ever hell is it was a dump in Israel.

"Gehenna" was the city's garbage dump. Jesus used it metaphorically to symbolize eternal death, but Christendom turned it into a hell of eternal torment....worms and all.
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The Jews lost their original definition of "sheol" and came out with something similar. The strange thing is most every religious culture has such a place....but the Bible does not speak of a place of conscious torment after death. There is no immortal soul to leave the body to go somewhere else anyway. (Ecclesiastes 9:5;10)

So you belive the devil is laughing now that he spread the Bible far and wide through his efforts, when not making a church we'd never have heard of it.

No, he is laughing because he has the majority of "Christians" practicing and believing things Jesus never taught. They are all traveling along, blissfully ignorant about being on the wrong road. (Matthew 7:13-14) None are prepared to travel the cramped and narrow one. They want the easy way but its a dead end.

But if what you said was true then the devil was doing the work of God by spreading the message. It's not what you believe, of course. I believe the devil as interpreted is essentially a pagan idea also. Did the ancient Jews not believe satan was still working for God?

Who knows, the Jews are not a terribly reliable source for the interpretation of their own scripture if you ask me.
I was told you could ask a dozen Jews the same question and get 12 answers and they would all be right. :p
Just so you know...a Jewish person told me that.

Of course being a pure monotheist I don't believe there could be a force that can oppose God at all, since that would be a "god", just like Loki, Suteh, Louhi, and the various devils of most religions of the world.

Its not as if God is powerless....he is just giving the devil and all who follow his lead, enough rope.....it serves his purpose.

Since you aren't going to believe anything about the pharisees I say, ask the modern day Jews here if they believed in bodily resurrection or not and whether they or their modern day followers believe in hell.

And that is exactly the point....Why did Jesus castigate the Pharisees? They taught rubbish....nothing close to what God's word said.

I would also ask why the devil would made the effort to have prophecy became true. If the devil knew the prophecy, he could easily avoid it unless the devil was in fact (a)purely stupid or (b)working for what you believe is God's plan.

You forget....prophesy is not God making something happen...it is God foreseeing the future and telling us in advance how it plays out. What happens in the outworking of prophesy is simply history written in advance. That is why it is so accurate.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
There has to be a way to become a citizen of the Kingdom, because God would never promise something we cannot achieve. What do you believe qualifies us for entry into God's Kingdom?
There is of course a way to "enter", because it's already "inside" of us. We have to have the mindset of a child to enter it. Like is quoted of Jesus in the Bible, when we get to the kingdom of God there won't be people saying oh look it's a place over here or over there, because it's not a physical kingdom.

"Gehenna" was the city's garbage dump. Jesus used it metaphorically to symbolize eternal death, but Christendom turned it into a hell of eternal torment....worms and all.
scared0014.gif
Yes it was just a dump. But so is satan just an accuser, a prosecutor, turned into an evil half-god working to sabotage the good god's plans, just like the ones in pagan mythologies.

The Jews lost their original definition of "sheol" and came out with something similar. The strange thing is most every religious culture has such a place....but the Bible does not speak of a place of conscious torment after death. There is no immortal soul to leave the body to go somewhere else anyway. (Ecclesiastes 9:5;10)
The Bible is right in that. There is no hell. Even satan only exists in our heads.

No, he is laughing because he has the majority of "Christians" practicing and believing things Jesus never taught. They are all traveling along, blissfully ignorant about being on the wrong road. (Matthew 7:13-14) None are prepared to travel the cramped and narrow one. They want the easy way but its a dead end.
You're making this devil guy sound very succesfull, while at the same time giving you the advantage of having the Church preserving the Bible and even spreading it to the pagans. Was the Bible printed and spread to the masses by people who believed as you do? Nope. For you they are also still the "devil's church", just a different one.

Who knows, the Jews are not a terribly reliable source for the interpretation of their own scripture if you ask me.
I was told you could ask a dozen Jews the same question and get 12 answers and they would all be right. :p
Just so you know...a Jewish person told me that.
They seem to value thinking on their own. They had to, because they wouldn't have survived otherwise.

Its not as if God is powerless....he is just giving the devil and all who follow his lead, enough rope.....it serves his purpose.
Really? So you believe God lets the devil guy do his work for him, and he even intended it all. In truth God doesn't set obstacles to the kingdom.

You forget....prophesy is not God making something happen...it is God foreseeing the future and telling us in advance how it plays out. What happens in the outworking of prophesy is simply history written in advance. That is why it is so accurate.
So you don't believe in an almighty God either?
And do you believe in an omniscient God?

Do you believe God has to use some ability to look up what's going to happen?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
confused0059.gif
Read Matthew 23.....The Pharisees were not spiritually "healthy" in any respect according to Jesus. You have to ignore a lot of scripture to say that. Who was responsible for Jesus' arrest...his illegal trial and subsequent murder?

When Jesus said..."forgive them Father for they know not what they do"...he was not speaking about the Jewish religious leaders, I assure you.
No I am not ignoring scripture. Notice he says both Pharisees and temple priests sit in Moses seat, thus recognizing two different groups: the Pharisees and the leaders. Notice also that nowhere in the NT is 'Pharisee' explained, because the NT is not a textbook. Now then, you feel that the Pharisees know what they are doing wrong; but clearly they do not according to Jesus who calls them vipers when they think of themselves as very nice people. In fact everybody thinks they are really great folks, because by normal standards they are. The hypocrisy Jesus refers to is the way that they have this whole Tradition whereby Pharisees train more Pharisees, and he thinks that is the worst, just the worst. Recall that the Pharisee tradition is actually broken and does not go all the way back to Moses, except through maybe one teacher anyway. Jesus seems to be indicating that there are no pure denominations, but the Pharisees insist their denomination is pure. They can make disciples they think. They can establish a guaranteed continuum. Jesus says they go over land and sea to find one quality disciple only to make them twice as bad as themselves (son of hell). The term 'Son of hell' is not defined in the NT, but it isn't hard to guess that it means their tradition is useless to Jesus. He's calling it garbage, not because of its content but because it is hypocritical to presume to create an inerrant tradition, to presume to guarantee continuum. It leads to corruption and evil, and haven't we all seen that repeatedly in our history books? I think he has a point. What Jesus is NOT doing is saying the Pharisees have evil teachings or are generally evil intent except that they are in this hypocritical stance of upholding this tradition of theirs. He does not like that, and so he calls them vipers.

I think he went way further than that. There was no "apostolic succession" or seminaries for Christians in the first century...there was a foretold apostasy however that was already "at work" before the apostles passed off the scene. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7) It grew into a juggernaut of fake Christianity that ended up engulfing the world. It is the "weeds"....just as Jesus said.
Not really. What happened was what always happens. Christians started to argue about what was correct doctrine, and the evil within them was able to take advantage of that to destroy the churches making them eventually ineffective and then destructive.

The correction comes from the inside, not the outside. We first have to take in knowledge and then we process that knowledge and either adopt it or reject it.
Do not focus on correction. Focus on love, and correction will happen. "Be excellent in what is good and innocent of evil and the God of peace will soon crush Satan beneath your feet." That is reliable advice. Don't focus on correction, because you can't get correct doctrine through conversation and argument. Also "...bringing down arguments and every thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God..." and "...knowledge puffs up, but love builds up..."

Spiritual Jews are not just Jews born of a Jewish mother.....fleshly Israel was cast off and a new nation chosen who would produce the right fruits. Israel as a nation, never did. (Matthew 23:37-39)
Jews already know about circumcising the heart, and its just not widely discussed with outsiders. Its right there in the Torah plain as day. Judaism is actually pretty hot stuff through most of History, and I think we need to be a little more circumspect about criticizing and work more on competing with them.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
I believe that the original concept, which became Christianity, is Jesus worship.
Some non-fundamentalist scholars who study early Christianity would disagree. They propose early Christianity had multiple variations, each having its own specific emphasis.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
how can you argue much of modern Christian theology, with any clarity?
This is, I think, a Christian topic. In my view, Christianity has morphed many times and continues to do so. Theology does not provide truth but, rather, is more like philosophy but with its domain limited to scripture.
 
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