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Featured Is modern Christianity off track?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Desert Snake, May 10, 2018.

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Is modern Christianity off track?

Poll closed Aug 18, 2018.
  1. Yes, modern Christianity has confused the deific nature of Deity

    100.0%
  2. No, my church is right, etc

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Ive read a catholic bible and the kjv.

    My father loved the kjv, and so do my brothers.

    So i am very familiar with independent born again baptist bible salvation messages and requirements.

    What is the salvation message the JW's espouse?
     
  2. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    My apologies.

    I thought the salvation message was central to Christianity. If the salvation message is true, then christianity is on track, if not, its off track.
     
  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hey Deeje, I can't remember if I've told you about this before, but check out www.2001translation.com ....they've restored the Divine Name, znd have rendered some verses quite interestingly!
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OMGoodness....seriously....this is where the conversation goes when you have nothing to say? :facepalm:

    "An angel of the Lord" appears to Joseph and tells him not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife because she was pregnant with Jesus......so who is the "Lord" spoken of here? Did Jesus convey his instructions from the womb?

    What about Matthew 2:13?

    "Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.”

    Since Jesus was the child in question, what "Lord" is referred to here? A different one? Or was the toddler again giving instructions to his angel?

    And you talk about no confusion? [​IMG] Good grief!
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    True, however the premise of the thread is addressing the God concept within jesus adherence, and Christianity. So it's a bit specific.
     
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  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Lord is pluralistic JHVH Jesus. It's only confusing to you, because you aren't following the inferred theology, or the text, or the OT One God with many name/titles, and more than one name.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    So as not to derail the thread I'll write my response in a new thread. OK?
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No point in continuing...have it your way.
     
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Leaven is not evil and is just not allowed at a certain times of year in the bread. Because leaven is bacterial its possible to accidentally leaven bread. It is very easy to accidentally forget that there is some kind of leaven in the house, and so houses must be thoroughly cleaned, perhaps emptied, to make sure there is no leaven around. He's saying the Pharisees around him have overlooked something, not that they aren't trying or that they don't want to do right. Notice however that he does not correct them, and the only account we have of a Pharisee talking to him alone comes from John 3 where Jesus points out that the spirit does not get passed from person to person ( as in a discipleship program ) but goes wherever. Jesus then further expounds that there is only one verdict, and its that evil people run from the light while good people enter it. There is no shibboleth, no check for the right accent, no list of riddles to know; and that concludes his speech to Nicodemus. If we are going to be exclusive then we may as well be Jewish and stop pretending like we believe the holy spirit goes where it will.

    What I think is that we aren't supposed to judge one another, and we aren't supposed to cut one another off over doctrines -- like we have been doing all too frequently for the last 2000 years -- and what ever has come of it? The church becomes weak and amalgamated with politics, and then it fractures. It becomes ineffective and even harmful all because of trying to correct each other's doctrines. The clever leech makes use of these kinds of conflicts.

    Probably not, but while Jesus spoke to the Pharisees things they did not wish to hear he did not cut them off from himself. Also when the disciples went out to preach they were not making converts, and they were not competent to teach generally. Many of them were lower class, and that was part of the whole message.

    If correcting one another is correct, then why does Jesus tell us not to quarrel? Why does James say that anyone who thinks they are wise should just show their wisdom through good living? It is because that is how converts are made. They aren't made through wise teaching and correction, and besides nobody listens when they are told what to do unless they hear within themselves that same message.

    Those who he calls those he never knew are those who don't care for the poor, the naked, the lonely. You picked the very passage where he says he will denies knowing those people who know all the right things and teach all the right things and have miracles. They are not the ones who know him; but people who know nothing but live right he knows.
     
  10. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Do you believe that Jesus is the Word?
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Mark 8:15-17...."And he warned them in no uncertain terms: “Keep your eyes open; look out for the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” 16 So they began arguing with one another over the fact that they had no bread. 17 Noting this, he said to them: “Why do you argue over your having no bread? Do you not yet perceive and understand? Are your hearts still dull in understanding?"

    Luke 12:1..."In the meantime, when a crowd of so many thousands had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, he started by saying first to his disciples: “Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."

    Reading Matthew 23:13-33 it is apparent that Jesus did not have a good thing to say about those "hypocrites".

    He was not sent to correct them...God already knew that they were incorrigible. Jesus was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Those sheep were lost because of the failure of their shepherds.

    Nicodemus came only under cover of darkness...afraid of the reprisals. We don't know how it turned out for him. But certainly no one was turned away who genuinely wanted to know even an unpleasant truth. The "lost" saw the truth and flocked to the Fine Shepherd for refreshment after being trodden on by the religious leaders for way too long.

    As messengers it is not up to us to judge anyone...but we must judge what we are taught and test it out to see if it is what Christ taught...or if it is a concoction of man made dogma. Jesus said to look at the fruits and you will know what kind of people true Christians are....known for the love they have among themselves. (John 13:34-35)

    The holy spirit provided all that was necessary for the disciples to do what Jesus asked asked of them.

    Jesus...."summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, in order to expel these and to cure every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity......These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Sa·marʹi·tan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, preach, saying: ‘The Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ 8 Cure the sick, raise up the dead, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free.....Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

    Jesus did not choose educated ones to accomplish the preaching work. (Matthew 11:25)

    Jesus told his disciples just before his departure....
    "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

    This preaching was to be done among the Jews first. It would meet with opposition and it meant altering perceptions of what they had been taught all their lives....but they had to fulfill this commission which would come to include the Gentiles....right up until the end of the system of things. Lives depended on it. (Matthew 24:14)

    Exactly. They don't know the master they claim to serve...or more importantly, the master refuses to acknowledge them as his own. They recount all the things that they thought were important? But why does Jesus call them "lawless"? They consider themselves Christians, so what is this 'lawlessness ' they practice? They fail to do so many things that Jesus commanded.

    And....no one can fulfill the commission to preach unless Christ is "with" them. They can do all manner of 'tricks', but they can't go out preaching about the Kingdom. It was the last and most important thing that Jesus told them to do. Most of them have no idea what the kingdom is, so how can they preach about it?

    Jesus didn't expect his disciples to be educated teachers because it was not by those means that the gospel message would be delivered. It would be by means of the "uneducated and untrained" that God would do the job. (Acts 4:13) It isn't personal skill...but the operation of God's spirit that accomplishes it. :)
     
  12. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    So you believe the devil dismantled the false religions that had no part of worship of the true God, created a new religion that partly worshipped the true God and had his scriptures. And you're saying the devil did this willingly? Sounds like this devil was working against the stated goal... the story makes zero sense.

    So if it's a battle between what you think are God and the devil, why would the devil do so much work for God's side? Because if I have you right, the pagans had no part in worshipping the true God, and the worship would never have spread into pagan lands without the help of what you think is the devil's Church...

    The pharisees started by doing the same as you are doing now, criticizing foreign/pagan elements that crept into the Jews religious life, which they thought was the cause of the decline in Israel.
     
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It makes zero sense because that is nothing like what I said. [​IMG]

    The devil is responsible for all false worship because it is taken from God and given to the wannabe.

    The devil likes nothing more than to take something beautiful that God has made and trash it.....look at the state of the planet....look at the state of man's politics.....look at the state of religion!....look at the state of humanity....All in a mess!

    Is English not your first language or am I really that bad at conveying a thought? :confused:

    The devil is all his own work...he is self-made. But just because he rebelled doesn't mean God can't use something bad to get a good result. The church did what Jesus said to the Pharisees...."Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.....“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.....Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!....(Matthew 23)

    “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit. (Matthew 15:13-14)

    The Church took their pagan doctrines into every nation, planting seeds of apostasy everywhere they went.
    Spreading more paganism in pagan lands accomplished what exactly? It was only in the "time of the end" that God would 'cleanse and refine' his worshippers of all false doctrines and begin the greatest preaching campaign the world has ever seen. According to Acts 1:8, Jesus said...."you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth." That has only been accomplished in the last 100 years, fulfilling part of the sign of the last days of this system of things. (Matthew 24:14)

    Where are you finding this information because it isn't in the Bible. It was the Pharisees themselves that caused their own decline according to Jesus. o_O Read Matthew 23 again.....
     
  14. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Yes you didn't say it, but if what you said was true, that's what it means. If you were the devil, why would you do so much work to help spread God's name?

    It's not my first language, but neither is there anything hard to follow in what you say. It's something that various protestants and JWs claim about the Catholic Church so you could say I even grew up hearing what you're saying now. Because that Church decided to convert my ancestors and bring the Bible here, and later the King decided to have nothing to do with the "devil's Church" and the faith became from scripture alone.

    Yet the pharisees were saying that to the people in power before that.

    Took their pagan doctrines, the Bible and the story of Jesus Christ to pagan countries that hadn't heard anything about that.

    So you're saying it was planned by God and the devil was working hard to fulfill prophecy that would come true almost two millenia later, when your religious interpretation saw light.

    The Pharisees were ones resisting Roman and Greek elements creeping up into Jewish religion and society. Things you'd call pagan.
     
  15. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Thats part of my first post addressing the OP.

    ...part of your reaction to my post where you said Jesus corrected Pharisee teachings.

    Which was a change in what you thought in a previous post where you insisted Jesus came to correct their teachings. The leaven was hypocrisy not their teachings. He upheld their teachings and approved of them in telling his disciples to do as the Pharisees instructed.

    If you say so, but no I do not think so. I do not see any new thinking in Jesus teachings. Everything he says draws on scripture, but he demands more selflessness than the Pharisees, more of what they teach not less. This is part of why they think he is crazy when he says things like 'Give to whoever asks!' Try keeping this command. You might survive if God helps you, or you might find yourself with only mud for clothing. I for one cannot blame anyone for thinking him crazy as he really does come across as eccentric in the gospels and not at all like the blue & and white garbed figure in Sunday school books. His idea of a good Pharisee seems to be one who is naked, poor and slaving away for the sake of strangers, and he considers them hippocrites for objecting! It is easy for us to hold them to a different standard than ourselves and to laugh at their discomforture while we do far less good work. That is much greater hypocrisy. How will we ever live down our own reputation for hypocrisy?
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It was not the thinking of the Pharisees as a group that he wanted to change....he was not sent to correct them as God has previously sent his prophets to do...they were not redeemable as a body, though individuals (like Nicodemus) could make up their own minds. Priests were among those who became followers of Jesus.

    Jesus was sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" and it was their thinking he needed to change. They had to understand that what the Pharisees demanded of them in the Talmud, was NOT what God was asking for in the Torah. When Jesus used the phrase "you heard it was said.....but I tell you"....(such as Matthew 5:27-28) he was referring to what the Pharisees taught compared to what he taught, that came from God in their scriptures.

    Jesus stressed the scriptures as his sole source of instruction...the Pharisees relied on their own traditions to take the scripture to an extreme degree or to twist the principle behind it. This is what Jesus objected to. (Matthew 23:16-24; Matthew 15:1-6) Those traditions Jesus said, invalidated God's word.

    No actually, Jesus demonstrated by his own lifestyle what was required by God. Like Solomon he basically demonstrated that neither poverty nor riches was the ideal. (Proverbs 30:8) Jesus did not go without food, nor was he ever naked....he had no home but that didn't matter....
    He relied on God for his provisions, which is why he originally told his apostles not to take provisions with them on their preaching trips. Jews were commanded under law to take care of the needs of their fellow Jews. But the apostles relied on God even when that hospitality was withdrawn. Paul endured much hardship for the sake of the good news, but God never let him down. (Philippians 4:11-13)
     
  17. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    You have a false choice here.
    1. Yes, modern Christianity has confused the deific nature of Deity
    2. No, my church is right, etc
    Option 1 says, modern Christianity (that is, the church as a whole) has confused the deific nature of Deity. Option 2 says my church is right (implying that the church as a whole may still be wrong, but mine is right).
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    The first option can be voted regardless of whether the second option is thought to be true.

    The 'etc' allows for the second option regardless of whether the persons church is thought to be wrong, or not.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think you misread my words or the intent behind them...the devil was out to spread lies and if he could convince people to accept a corrupted form of Christianity, that would prevent them for looking any further because they would already believe that what they have is the truth....but it never was...which is why Jesus will say to "many" at the judgment, "I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23)

    Even those who go by scripture alone can be misled. Who interprets the scripture? Individuals? groups? charismatic leaders?

    We have a promise from Jesus that he would appoint a "faithful slave" who would provide spiritual "food at the proper time" for the spiritual health of his household. (Matthew 24:45)
    He asked a question that we need to find the answer to.....'who is he'?

    Their only concern was for their own power and influence. They adopted pagan concepts just as Christendom did. "Hell" for example, was not a concept found in the Hebrew scriptures because the ancient Jews had no belief in an immortal soul. Jews believed in a full bodily resurrection in the future under Messiah's Kingdon on a "new earth" as God promised through their prophets. Isaiah 65:17 was reiterated by the apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:13 and John in Revelation 21:1.

    What they took was a corrupted version of the Bible's narrative. The only thing that remained close to the truth was the person of Jesus himself as a teacher...the rest was nothing close to the truth.....so if it wasn't the truth it might as well have been just another bunch of pagan ideas. The devil was laughing.

    No I wasn't saying anything like that. I wish you wouldn't misinterpret what I say. That creates a strawman that you then proceed to knock down. God did not plan what the devil did. Satan was originally a faithful angel who was given a position of responsibility in the Garden of Eden. He abused that position and the trust that God had in him. God allowed what satan did to play out as he knew it would.....because he knew that object lessons teach so much better than words, which the first pair ignored. And here we are nearing the end of the allotted time for satan to do his thing.....he has intensified his efforts...but so has God's and his faithful servants.

    They did a terrible job then. Both the idea of an immortal soul and hell, both came from Hellenism.

    The Pharisees had no interest in anything but what would impact on their own position and authority.
    After Jesus resurrected Lazarus....."So a great many of the Jews, such as had come to Mary’s and witnessed what he did, believed in him; 46 but some of them went off to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus had done. 47** So the chief priests and the Pharisees got together a Sanhedrin and said “What are we doing that this man is doing so many tokens? 48 if we let him go on like this everybody will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” (John 11:45-48)

    They plotted the death of an innocent man just to keep "their place and their nation" as they wanted it. No wonder Jesus said that they would not pass the judgment that God would meet out to them and those like them.
     
  20. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Jesus teaches through a parable that the shepherd risks leaving the healthy sheep to find the one. The Pharisees are the healthy sheep.
    Jesus criticised Tradition -- the belief that the spirit passed from teacher to student. In other words he was against things like apostolic succession and seminaries. He considered them I think to be corrupting influences. He is not against having traditions but against the Tradition discipleship method. This he calls on the carpet and why because he is saying it is time for realization of Jeremiah 31. He is saying that old method of learning about the way is no more, that it is no longer best. He denounces Tradition, so of course the Pharisees seek to embarrass him.

    So no we do not need to correct each others doctrines, because that is not how things ought to work in a Jeremiah 31 World.
     
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