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Is Merit Based Hiring on the Way Out?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Quetzal, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. Quetzal

    Quetzal A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
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    I have noticed something that has been bothering me. I am seeing some hiring managers going out of their way to meet arbitrary quotas in regards to hiring people who are not white men, regardless of qualifications. This really bothers me. I have nothing against a diverse workforce, but the idea that merit comes second to race or sex gets under my skin.

    An example, a recent hiring manager from Twitter posted that his search was not what he expected. He said he had several responses but only two of them were women. Instead of accepting the notion that, perhaps, men would more interested in the position, he assumed he made a mistake in promoting the position. The radical left of Twitter, of course, agreed that he screwed up and needed to do X, Y and Z to make that position more balanced.

    I call nonsense on that. If you make a job posting and it is dominated by men, it should be assumed that women are not interested in the position. Job posting boards/forums want more people to apply, that is how they make their money. To claim otherwise is simply incorrect.

    It is my opinion that hiring should be based on merit, knowledge, and experience. Gender, race, etc should not even be a consideration. Yet the radical left wants exactly that. They want gender and race to become active indicators for hiring people. I think that is a very dangerous road and it makes me uncomfortable.
     
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  2. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Some decades ago, my alma mater conducted some study about racism.
    I recall that one of the signs of being a racist is the belief that the most
    qualified person should get the job. I hope you're feeling uncomfortable now.

    Anyway, what you describe has been going on for half a century.
     
    #2 Revoltingest, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  3. Quetzal

    Quetzal A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
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    PS: The title of this thread is a bit click-baity, sorry about that. I do want to have a discussion regarding hiring quotas, though.
     
  4. Quetzal

    Quetzal A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
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    RACIST! (am I doing this right?) Wait, or am I racist? Are we both racist?

    Where have I been? Was I drunk in a ditch?
    ...
    I was drunk in a ditch.
     
  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    We're both racists according to the University Of Michiganistan.
    I was sober in the 70s, so I noticed it.
    I was even turned down for a job as a reactor operator at the
    Phoenix Memorial Laboratory (at U of M) because they were
    under orders to hire only women & minorities. (I'm neither.)
     
  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    And then the question would be why.

    If an HR manager knows that there are, say, 30% women in a particular field, but when they post jobs in that field, they only get 5% women applying, this ought to be a sign that something is wrong: is the posting somehow not reaching women in the field? Is there sonething in the posting that turns women off? Is there something wrong with the reputation of the company (or an individual manager)?

    Basically, any time your sample doesn't reflect the population you're sampling, this indicates bias somewhere in your sampling method.

    But they are considerations under the status quo.

    Take a very common practice: hiring by referral from existing employees. People tend to refer people they know personally - obviously - so they tend to refer people who went to the same school as them, or live in the same neighbourhood, or go to the same church, or golf at the same country club, or share a hobby. This can end up creating a very homogeneous workforce where the new hires look a heck of a lot like the people you already have.

    Addressing these sorts of bias means confronting issues like race and gender.

    ... and it isn't a matter of choosing based on race or gender over merit; it's about correcting existing biases so that you can hire based on merit.
     
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  7. Quetzal

    Quetzal A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
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    I am not a fan of nepotism either. Again, a non-issue if the candidate is qualified.

    How is having a quota to have a standing workforce of 30% being a minority group (for example) not choosing based on race? Basically indicating that for this particular, fictional position, if it is posted in an effort to gain more diversity, non-minority individuals are not considered. Is this not racism?
     
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  8. Quetzal

    Quetzal A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
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    Wonder how it worked out for them.
     
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  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Funny you should ask.
    The manager told me that they hired people with little tool experience.
    Wrenches dropped in the reactor pool was a problem.
     
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  10. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    FWIW, I have not ever taken advantage of such
    situation and would be ashamed to have done so.
     
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  11. Quetzal

    Quetzal A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
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    Companies have gotten pretty sneaky in the way they hide their biases. This can go any number of directions.
     
  12. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    I believe you.
    You weren't even born yet back then.
    But while being female would've been a plus,
    being asian is a strike against you.
     
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  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    If a job has many qualified candidates but a company predominantly chooses white male qualified candidates, then there is an issue.

    No; it's an acknowledgment of the racism inherent in a process that deters most women from applying.

    And that's just the application stage. There's also often bias in candidate selection. For instance, this study found that identical resumes were about 50% more likely to result in a callback for an interview if the name on the resume was perceived as a "white" name than if it was perceived as a "black" name:

    http://public.econ.duke.edu/~hf14/teaching/povertydisc/readings/bertrand-mullainathan2004.pdf
     
  14. Quetzal

    Quetzal A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
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    Sure, I agree with that.

    By leveraging hiring based on race, right?

    Interesting, I will be sure to read through this later this afternoon.
     
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Asian-
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think overall
    it is to my advantage, or else it is just that I like
    being who I am.
     
  16. Erebus

    Erebus Well-Known Member

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    In the UK employers discriminating based on race, gender, etc is illegal regardless of motivation. You can't refuse to hire somebody because of their skin colour, nor can you hire them because of their skin colour. Personally, I prefer this approach. The problems come down to enforcement and proving that discrimination occurred.

    The aim of affirmative action is reasonable enough. There are some groups who have faced discrimination (and still do) and so you're insisting that employers take some of these people on. That way you reduce the likelihood of a given group finding it impossible to gain employment, particularly employment in higher positions. The issue of course is that you're then likely to engage in tokenism. A person's merit can become secondary to filling a quota.

    Both systems are flawed for sure, but I'm inclined to believe that both have good intentions.
     
  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I am not an employer, so I am just shooting my mouth off. Sorry about that.
    That well was poisoned by previous generations and pretended not to have anything against a diverse workforce, and so now everybody has to tow the line legally speaking. They had to make laws about it.

    I wish they would go out of their way to hire me, because I'd be just amazing. They need me, but how can they find me?

    Ok there could be a work shortage, but it could be that its Twitter. Twitter doesn't seem permanent. It appears to have reached its peak. Maybe it has trouble attracting workers. Am I wrong on that?

    That sounds reasonable, and it could be that society is going to bounce back and accept that. Maybe, but its currently one of many political footballs.

    Seems reasonable, but the radical left also wants certain reasonable things that its not getting because of the radical right. You are squished in the middle of the fight.
     
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  18. Stanyon

    Stanyon WWMHD?

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    You could insert any race or gender and the same would be true would it not?
     
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  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    That's right.
     
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  20. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    I believe in fairness and equality, but what you're describing here appears to be a variation on tokenism - merely for the sake of appearances. However benevolent it might be presented, it's still just as racist and/or sexist as anything else.

    However, I don't know if it's the radical left that wants this. This has been more in the realm of the liberal left and moderate conservatives who want to make a point of proving to the world that they're not racist or sexist. It's a lie - and it always has been since day one. I see it more as a shameless ploy on the part of upper class whites wanting to keep their ill-gotten wealth while making lower class whites into scapegoats for all their sins.

    That's why, after all these decades, there are still complaints about how little progress has been made in the area of the civil rights - despite all the rhetoric and propaganda surrounding it.
     
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