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Featured Is Jesus the Son of God?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "This is why some bible scribes inserted the begotten word only to be removed later due to it being recognised as fallacy, because the scripture does not have solid evidence that Jesus is the begotten son of God though the church teaches it."

    I agree with one's above expression.
    Regards
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The apostle John goes one further....
    John 1:14, 18:
    "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth."
    "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."


    1 John 4:9-10:
    "By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son into the world so that we might gain life through him. 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins."


    What about the Lord's Prayer? Doesn't Jesus teach his disciples to pray to "OUR Father in heaven"? [​IMG]
     
  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "The apostle John goes one further....
    John 1:14, 18:
    "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth."


    John is not written by Jesus. It is third person narrative.
    Jesus and Mary never believed that Jesus was a begotten physical issue of G-d. Right? Please
     
  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    First separate Christianity (John, Paul and Simon) and Yeshua (Synoptic Gospels).....

    Yeshua in the synoptic gospels doesn't call himself the 'son of God', he called himself the 'son of man'....

    Now God did come down and say "this is my son, listen to him"; so not arguing that he isn't, just some of the specifications are off.

    When in Psalms it says 'we are all Elohim, and sons of EL'.... Yeshua said anyone who does the work of God, being a peacemaker is a child of God.

    So figuratively we're all children of the most high, some have fallen lower than others tho, and thus don't recognize they're children of God as well.

    The other question is the impregnation of Mary, the Raëlian concept that Yeshua is really a light being from the Alpha Centauri district, is another possibility. :innocent:
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Thank you for your two excellent and thoughtful posts. I'm presuming you are from an Islamic background? If so it is excellent you have taken the time to reflect on many different passages throughout both the Old and New Testaments. I agree with most of what you said.
     
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Verse?
     
  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that however believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life. John 3:16
    This is important to contrast with the quote we are all sons of God. The significance of this quotation is the unique role of Jesus to humanity as distinct from other humans. It does not have to mean God had a physical son at all. Christians have interpreted this literally rather than metaphorically. Was there no such language of metaphor in the Holy Quran and Hadiths to express the uniqueness and greatness of Muhammad?
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The Gospel of John was written by the apostle John, as were his letters and the Revelation. He was a constant companion of Jesus during his entire ministry and an eye witness to all he did. Jesus wrote nothing by himself. Yet he said that all his teachings came from his Father. His apostles were assigned to write down his more important teachings and God's spirit saw to it that it was accurately recorded and preserved down to this day.

    Mary was visited by the angel Gabriel to inform her that she was favored by God to be the human instrument who would carry the life of his son. He was produced by means of God's spirit, but was not God-incarnate.

    His status as "only begotten" did not pertain to his human birth, but was a designation describing his creation. Someone who is "begotten" requires a 'begetter'.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    John 11:34-36:
    "Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"
     
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Thank you for post Wizanda. I respect your views but do have a different perspective.

    The Gospel of John is perhaps the most spiritual of the New testament books and the writing continues to confound even the greatest Christian thinkers to this day.

    Paul was an apostle of God who went from being a persecutor of Christians to one of the grwat heroes of his era. He was totally animated by The Holy Spirit and with great passion, love, and wisdom spread the Gospel of Jesus far and wide, assisting greatly with the development of Churches, and ultimately sacrificed his life.

    Peter was endorsed by Jesus:
    "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Mathew 16:18-19
    Peters legacy was arguably the foundation of the Christian Church, certainly as recognised by the Catholic Church.

    John, Paul, and Peter - Their books in my opinion thoroughly deserve to be part of the New Testament.
     
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  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Get a Bible software and look it up, we're talking about the whole of the synoptic gospels, I'm not posting it all. :eek:
    Please be clear, we're not removing them, they fulfill prophecy of the Great Deception; all we're doing is explaining if you don't dissect them first, into their own separate ideologies, then it arrives at conflicting theology later. ;)

    Thus on your question to clarify it, John makes him the 'only begotten son of God', Paul calls him 'the first born son of God' and Simon the stone (petros) is why the church is built on this premise, even though it doesn't mean that much if we're all sons of God. :innocent:
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    And I'm not going to assume that you researched said verses, either. Hence, you can either present the verse/s/, or it simply is a statement without evidence.
     
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    I've got Esword open, and can examine the phrase Son G5207 of God G2316 across the synoptic gospels, and you will find multiple times Yeshua doesn't call him self it; Satan does, demons do, Simon does, the Pharisees do, he doesn't. :innocent:
     
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  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I think they use language differently to make similar points, particular in regards to the Uniqueness and Greatness of Christ in relation to God, nothing more. The problem comes when a literal interpretation becomes enshrined as an immutable holy teaching of the church that can never be questioned for fear of severe consequences including death. The emporer Constantine started that, not Peter.
     
  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    As posting previously (John, Paul, Simon) can show where each directly contradicts Yeshua; the flowery language blinds people to the iniquity these 3 teach. :(
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    This isn't specifically relevant to my comment/query
     
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    It is, it shows I've looked at the data, the only way you can assess if there are no references as I'm stating, is to examine it yourself; if i post verses, that doesn't mean there are not others, unless you verify it for your self. :facepalm:
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Matthew 4:3 The tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
    Matthew 4:6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, ‘He will command his angels concerning you.’ and, ‘On their hands they will bear you up, so that you don’t dash your foot against a stone.’”
    Matthew 8:29 Behold, they cried out, saying, “What do we have to do with you, Jesus, Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”
    Matthew 14:33 Those who were in the boat came and worshiped him, saying, “You are truly the Son of God!”
    Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
    Matthew 27:40 and saying, “You who destroy the temple, and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross!”
    Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God deliver him now, if he wants him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
    Matthew 27:54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”
    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the Good News of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
    Mark 3:11 The unclean spirits, whenever they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, “You are the Son of God!”
    Mark 5:7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
    Mark 15:39 When the centurion, who stood by opposite him, saw that he cried out like this and breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”
    Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father, David,
    Luke 1:35 The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God.
    Luke 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”
    Luke 4:9 He led him to Jerusalem, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, cast yourself down from here,
    Luke 4:41 Demons also came out of many, crying out, and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Rebuking them, he didn’t allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.
    Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torment me!”
    Luke 12:8 “I tell you, everyone who confesses me before men, him will the Son of Man also confess before the angels of God;
    Luke 22:69 From now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

    Luke 22:70 They all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say that I am.”

    This last line is the most telling, for two reasons:
    1. The Pharisees kept accusing Yeshua of claiming to be the "I Am" (Ego I-mee), when he doesn't speak that way about himself in the Synoptic Gospels, and warns against those that come after claiming to be him (Luke 21:8) in all three.
    2. Plus that the Pharisees after hearing the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, got confused with the metaphor, and assumed Yeshua to be proclaiming himself the son of God....Thus they are the ones accusing him of proclaiming it, when he didn't state it, like he didn't ever say he was the Messiah, they've assumed it.
    3. :innocent:
     
    #78 wizanda, Jan 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Jesus = Monogenis
    Ephraim = Prototokos

    Thus, if Jesus is son of God, Ephraim is the older son of God. Which makes him the elder brother of Jesus.

    What of this is hard to understand?

    This is meant to say "no", There are biological sons of God in the Bible.
     
  20. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    So you have mentioned Son of God 23 times in the synoptic gospels. I've counted 5 in the book of John so thats 28 in total. Obviously "Son of God" a very important designation for Christ.

    On the otherhand the phrase "Son of man" is mentioned 81 times!
    Son of man (Christianity) - Wikipedia

    The obvious question and it was raised by firedragon:
    Why do we call Jesus the son of God when the designation Son of man is made nearly 3 more in the gopsels?
     
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