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Is Jesus the Son of God or God?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology in General' started by Tranquil Servant, Jan 30, 2019.

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  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes, Jesus in his pre-human existence was definitely part of God's team....but to call Jesus "God" (with a capital "G") is where the problem starts.

    Yahweh himself called human judges "gods" in the sense that they had his divine authority.
    Do you recall in John 10: 31-36, when the Jews were trying to bring an accusation of blasphemy against Jesus?......

    "Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

    Jesus was quoting Psalm 82:1 where God says that he judges in the midst of those appointed men.....calling them "gods" because they were his representatives. Jesus has that title "god" applied to him too (as he said) because he came as God's representative....and yet he simply called himself "God's Son". He had every opportunity to identify himself as the Almighty right then and there, because the Jews were already going to stone him for blasphemy. Yet we have not a single statement from Jesus that even hints that he was God incarnate.

    Yes, Jesus was their "Lord" but not their God. His apostles knew who their God was....
    1 Corinthians 8:5-6....
    "For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

    Titles in the Bible have different applications. The Jews worshipped "one God...the Father". They did not worship Jesus, but rightly honored him....did obeisance (bowed) to him as God's Son.

    If you read the account, he was given a vision of heaven with Jesus at the right hand of his Father (no holy spirit was seen at his left hand and never has been) so Jesus was his Lord and as he was about to die, he addressed his last words to his familiar friend and teacher, whom he knew had promised to resurrect the dead. He entrusted Jesus with his resurrection to life in heaven as one of his "joint heirs".

    I don't believe it was a prayer as such because Jesus said we can only pray to God "through" him, not to pray "to" him.

    According to the Tanach the festival was....
    לַֽיהֹוָ֖ה ...which means "to Yahweh". So the idol they made was supposed to represent their God.

    ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Genesis 31:30; 32; Genesis 35:2) but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence.
    Elo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Yahweh himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men. When applying to Yahweh, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence.

    Indeed that's true. But God's mercy has to be merited. If we are doing the wrong thing in defiance of Jesus' teachings (justifying what Jesus condemned) then we will answer for that. Mercy is extended only when repentance is demonstrated. In order to be repentant, we have to know that what we are doing is wrong. The ones claiming Jesus as their "Lord" did not see what they were doing was wrong, but they paid the penalty for not checking that their beliefs and practices were pleasing to God, not just their church.

    Do we support a political system that we know is owned and operated by the devil?.....would we stand up and be counted in that world when Jesus told us to be "no part" of it? (1 John 5:19; John 18:36)

    The one thing that the devil uses as his most successful recruitment tool is patriotism. People get all fired up with nationalism and it becomes a catalyst for all manner of hate to be fed to the masses, dividing people over politics, religion, race, the right to bear arms....or in any other way to cause disharmony.

    When Jesus said to 'love our enemies'...how many of us can actually do that? How many can divorce themselves from nationalistic pride long enough to see the 'enemy' as just another human being....somebody's brother, sister, father, mother, uncle, aunt or cousin? When we dehumanize the enemy, we have more reason to hate someone who is probably just like us.

    Religiously motivated hatred is particularly rife in the world at the moment. Terrorism has instilled fear and fearful people are easy to control when you present yourself as their savior. But looking at the world objectively, its hard to tell who the real terrorists are. Most people do not understand that they are victims of propaganda.

    Not sure what you mean by that, can you explain?


    BTW...just asking (not criticizing) sometimes your posts are a bit hard to understand because your spelling is often incorrect. Do you have spellcheck? It might be an advantage to use it, just for clarity. You are obviously a well educated person, but spelling errors can reduce your credibility. Just a suggestion...no offense intended.
     
    #21 Deeje, Jan 31, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  2. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

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    I just wanted to share this to see what you guys think..... does this mean anything in reference to what we're talking about?:handpointdown:.....
    Isaiah 35
    The Glory of Zion
    (Matthew 9:32-34; Mark 7:31-37)

    1 The wilderness and the land will be glad;
    the desert will rejoice and blossom like a rose.
    2 It will bloom abundantly
    and even rejoice with joy and singing.
    The glory of Lebanon will be given it,
    the splendor of Carmel and Sharon.
    They will see the glory of the LORD,
    the splendor of our God.

    3 Strengthen the limp hands
    and steady the feeble knees!
    4 Say to those with anxious hearts:
    “Be strong, do not fear!
    Behold, your God will come with vengeance.
    With divine retribution He will come to save you.”
    5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
    and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
    6 Then the lame will leap like a deer
    and the mute tongue will shout for joy.
    For waters will gush forth in the wilderness,
    and streams in the desert.
    7 The parched ground will become a pool,
    the thirsty land springs of water.
    In the haunt where jackals once lay,
    there will be grass and reeds and papyrus.
    8 And there will be a highway
    called the Way of Holiness.
    The unclean will not travel it,
    only those who walk in that Way—
    and fools will not stray onto it.
    9 No lion will be there,
    and no vicious beast will go up on it.
    Such will not be found there,
    but the redeemed will walk upon it,
    10 and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
    They will enter Zion with singing,
    crowned with everlasting joy.
    Joy and gladness will overtake them,
    and sorrow and sighing will flee.
     
  3. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #23 Tranquil Servant, Jan 31, 2019
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  4. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    John 20:28-29

    "28“My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

    29Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.”

    Luke 24

    "50Then Jesus led them to Bethany, and lifting his hands to heaven, he blessed them. 51While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up to heaven. 52So they worshiped him and then returned to Jerusalem filled with great joy. 53And they spent all of their time in the Temple, praising God."

    Acts 7

    "59As they stoned him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”60He fell to his knees, shouting, “Lord, don’t charge them with this sin!” And with that, he died."

    Exodus 32:3 - STR - with Study Resources - with Context - Study Desk

    If you click on the link, then click on the words these be thy "gods" that brought you up out of egypt. "Gods" there is elohym. Not yahwah. However, when you press on "Lord" where Aaron says a feast would be done the morrow. Its yahwah there.

    So, the people called the calf gods, aaron did not call it gods. And i dont believe aaron was calling it yawhah. Why would yawhah let him live but not the others? Its because aaron was not stupid like they wer.

    But, lets go a bit deeper into some reasoning here. Why would they think this golden calf they just made, made them and brought them up out of egypt? They'd have to be wacko to believe it. No, they did not believe that. They believed this calf represented there gods that wer in egypt, like apis, a egyptian god bull from egypt. Isreal knew that was not yahwah because when moses showed up, they asked who his God was. So, they wer rejecting yahwah. In fact, when moses came down the mountain, he says he who is on yawhah side, come. So, they knew the difference.

    Agreed.

    Yes, worshiping a bull idol is hardly a mistake for the God of the universe. In other words, Isreal was acting like atheists at this time.

    I do have spell check on this phone. But, its multiple choice. So, sometimes i pick the wrong one.

    I dont think it hampers with credibility though.

    Ill respond to your other post on the occult in the other thread tomorow because this one took awhile.
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The exclamation of a doubting Thomas is hardly grounds for a doctrine, particularly when there are so many other references that prove the opposite. Please remember that Jesus was rightly called a "god" in their understanding of the word both in Hebrew and Greek.

    Accordings to Strongs Concordance....."They went G3036 on stoning G3036 Stephen G4736 as he called G1941 on the Lord and said, G3004 “Lord G2962 Jesus, G2424 receive G1209 my spirit!” G4151"

    ESV..."And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

    NABRE..."As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

    There is no "prayed" in that verse. That is a misleading translation by the looks. (NIV?)

    Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

    Clicking on the link to Strongs, you will see how this word is used in other scripture.

    Aaron said that the festival was " לַֽיהֹוָ֖ה "...which means "to Yahweh". So the idol they made was supposed to represent their God. I see no reference in scripture stating that the Israelites had adopted the worship of the false gods of Egypt. They were kept separate from the Egyptians as slaves put to hard labor. God said that he had heard their cries of oppression.

    From the 70 who entered Egypt with Jacob and his sons, they multiplied at such an extraordinary rate that it made the Egyptians fearful of their ever increasing numbers. Moses miraculously survived a mandated culling of the Hebrew male infants. He grew up knowing that he was a Hebrew and was used later to free his nation from slavery.

    Elo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Yahweh himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men. When applying to Yahweh, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence.

    Perhaps we just read it differently. The golden calf was the reason why Israel was not allowed to organize their own festivals from that time onward. Calling it a festival of Yahweh didn't make it one. I see a similarity with Christmas.....calling it Christian doesn't take away its pagan roots.

    Still not clear.....are you saying that they couldn't mistake an idol for the true God? Being surrounded by false worship for so long in Egypt, perhaps they had come to view Yahweh differently? They knew the God of their forefathers...but as yet had no laws.

    I must admit that I am a stickler for correct spelling.....its just a thing with me. If I don't know how to spell something, I will look it up before I post. Some people are just not good at spelling but misspelling is a distraction to me.

    When you're ready...no hurry.
     
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  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Just curious....what were they to "believe", do you think?
     
  7. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

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    Well in context it seems as though the resurrected Jesus is referring to those who have not seen him (or can't see him) yet still believe he is the messiah who died and resurrected on the third day because Thomas, one of the 12 disciples wasn't with the other disciples when Jesus appeared to them the first time around after Jesus died and even though Thomas was with Jesus all that time before Jesus died, he still didn't believe Jesus resurrected and said he would only believe Jesus resurrected if he could feel the nail holes in the hands of Jesus. In other words he would have to see it (and touch it) to believe it.:expressionless:
     
    #27 Tranquil Servant, Feb 1, 2019
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  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Yes, exactly! They needed to believe that he was resurrected, not that he was God. Some don’t seem to understand that.
     
  9. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

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    Yeah.... believing in the resurrection of Jesus is important but believing he's the messiah is just as important.;) believing Jesus is the messiah and believing all that he taught and prophesied (and what was prophesied about him before his arrival) including his resurrection, go hand in hand. I can only imagine how disappointed Jesus was that one of his own disciples, someone who spent so much time with him and was close to him, could have even the slightest doubt....
    Which leads me to another intriguing question that I will now post as a new thread....
     
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  10. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    What about Colosions 2:9?

    "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body."

    I was actually quoting from the new living translation. But, yes, NIV also uses prayed.

    So, calling upon, that isnt praying? If you pray, doesent that mean to call on God?

    Few questions for ya.

    1, why would the Israelites call a golden bull they just made the God of the universe?

    2, why would Aaron do this and not be destroyed by God along with those that worshiped it?

    3, how do you know Aaron was calling the calf yahwah? Yes, Aaron mentioned yahwah, but how do you know he was refering to the calf?

    Also, archaeology shows that the egyptians DID have a bull god named apis and hathor. Apis

    Theres also depictions of this bull at the mountain called jubal al luz, i think the best candidate for the real mount sinai.

    So, the isrealites did not make this bull out of a vacume. They got the idea from egypt, where they wer living for about 4 generations.

    But, there is stark scriptural evidence that yahwah was NOT refered to as that bull, per my questions above.

    Agreed.

    Interesting take, i dont have a problem with that. However, i think Aaron knew the difference between yahwah and the apis bull.

    All idols or graven images are representations of the peoples gods. There not the gods themselves.

    That said, the apis god and yahwah wer not the same God. Moses told them who yahwah was. They knew the difference.

    Remember at the bush, Moses asked God, what should i tell your people when they ask your name? God said "tell them i am that i am has sent you"

    Asking the name was not like how people today ask a name. Back then asking the name was the same as asking what is this God like? Who is he, what is he? That kinda thing. So, they knew the difference.

    Ok, ill try to spell better. How did i do in this post?
     
  11. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    But notice Jesus response was not a correction to thomas calling him God?
     
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  12. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

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    True!;).....Thomas did call him "my Lord and my God"
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Good point Deeje.
    @Jollybear I think 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 directly makes clear that we must know God.  
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 American Standard Version (ASV)
    6 if so be that it is a righteous thing with God to recompense affliction to them that afflict you, 7 and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire, 8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
    Also John 17:3 says we will only get everlasting life, if we know God.

    That is why Jesus said of the Pharisees that their father was the Devil, because rather than stick to his word - (John 8:31, 32) 31If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.- they believed the liar.
    John 8:44, 45
    44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me.

    There was a reason Jesus expended himself to teach the truth, and there was a reason he chose men to teach and make disciples, and he said this would continue to the end of the world. Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20
    It can't be a wasted effort that means nothing.
    Why go through all that trouble to teach the truth, if at the end of the day, it means nothing to our salvation?

    That would make no sense, would it?
    To the contrary, the scriptures consistently mentions the need to have accurate knowledge of truth, which is God's word. That's why we have it, isn't that so? To know the truth, which is what God wills.
    1 Timothy 2:3, 4
    3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

    Some evidently are sincere, but there was a problem with being sincerely wrong.
    Romans 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge.
    (Ephesians 4:13; Colossians 1:9, 10)
     
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  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there was is nothing wrong with recognizing Jesus as God - not almighty God - the only true God - the one alone requiring exclusive devotion, who Jesus himself said should be worshiped - the one alone to be served.
    Aaron would have known that he should worship Jehovah alone, even though Moses was appointed God, and Aaron was to be his messenger.
    The Jews likewise knew that the judges were gods, in relation to their authority by God.
    However, the fact that the title God, which basically identifies one as mighty, was bestowed on others, does not support the Trinity, in any way.
     
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  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Just something I thought of.
    Sometimes when we are taught one thing, and we believe, or accept it, and later something else, and we find we are confused, it might help to wipe the slate clean, and start fresh.
    Granted, this would not be easy, since memory is not easy to wipe out, but it's possible if we try hard enough, I believe, to let go of what could be interfering with sorting out what may not be as puzzling as it seems.
    Remember that, we believed, and accepted.
    Try unlearning how to ride a bicycle, and see what I mean. :)
    Studying the Bible fresh, and on a clean slate will help. Trust me. ;)
     
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  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Did he?
    The evidences indicate otherwise:

    The language Thomas used was not an address to Jesus but it was an exclamation to the Father. Why? Because John, the Apostle who wrote this, does not describe Thomas using the Greek case for direct address, which is the "vocative case.” In English, this case is implied in the context of a sentence, but in Greek, you have to identify it through spelling. This case is what makes simply mentioning a name like “Tom" different from addressing (or speaking to) that person, like yelling "Hey, Tom!”

    If John wanted us to think that Thomas made a direct address to Jesus, he would have used the "vocative case". But since John reported Thomas using the more standard "nominative case" he was just acknowledging the Father, Yahweh, and praising Him for Jesus' resurrection. Thomas was not addressing Jesus with the titles "Lord" and "God."

    Jesus understood this.

    When a scribe approached Jesus and called him "good teacher", Thomas was there when he heard Jesus rebuff that scribe.... Jesus responded, "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except One, God." (Mark 10:18)


    (It's best if one tries to learn grammatical phrases in the original language a book was written in....otherwise, there will be misinterpretations, and context may disagree and not make sense.)

    Also there's this evidence....

    Some "suppose that since Thomas said these words TO Jesus, then he must have taken this opportunity to declare that Jesus is his God ("my God"). However, as the following passage demonstrates, this assumption is highly flawed.

    From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to you." But Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God but upon the things of men."
    Matthew 16:21-23
    If we interpreted the above passage in the very same manner as Trinitarians interpret John 20:28, we would then be required to conclude Peter is Satan himself. But this is obviously incorrect. Even though Jesus said these words directly TO Peter, we know it does not mean Peter is Satan himself. Hence, we must inquire whether a similar situation may be taking place at John 20:28."

    Source: John 20:28
     
    #36 Hockeycowboy, Feb 2, 2019
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  17. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

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    In all honesty, I know nothing about "vocative case" or "nominative case":(
    But wasn't Jesus Good? Without sin? And to my understanding, reading the verse in context, Jesus knew the heart of the rich man and new that he was selfish and wasn't actually interested in being "good" but interested in living forever with his riches to which Jesus told him....
    19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.....

    Then the rich man said....

    20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

    Then.......

    21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.Then come, follow me.
    22 At this, the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

    So from reading this, I don't interpret Jesus saying "only God is good" As Jesus admitting he's not God or good enough but that the rich man wasn't good enough to follow the only "ONE" who is (was) good...
    :handpointright:Jesus
    I agree and disagree. The "original language" may not be the original language because the scriptures of the bible have been destroyed, "copied", and "translated" so much that nobody really knows if the translations we have today are grammatically correct..... that's why we have so many different versions, translations and "interpretations" of the bible....Also, how do we know we can trust someone who says "well there's an exclamation mark next to that word so he's not calling Jesus my Lord my God, he's saying Jesus OMG!":fearscream:
    Idk.....Js:infodeskperson:
     
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  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @Tranquil_Servant ,
    Actually, I admit that I'm not that versed in Greek, or it's sentence structure; and regarding the vocative and nominative usages, they don't really consistently provide conclusive proofs, by themselves. However, according to John, Thomas said, "the lord of me and the god of me".

    (All punctuation and capitalization have to be added. So, word structure is paramount to understanding the text.)

    By writing it this way -- using two definite articles (the) before each of the two nouns (lord, & god) -- all is important to understand.....

    Professor C. F. D. Moule....(C. F. D. Moule - Wikipedia)
    ....wrote, "In John 20:28 Ho kýrios mou kai ho theós mou [that is, My Lord and my God], it is to be noted that a substantive [like God] in the Nominative case used in a vocative sense [in address to Jesus] and followed by a possessive [of me] could not be anarthrous [that is, without the definite article the] . . . ; the article [the] before theós may, therefore, not be significant. . . . the use of the article [the] with a virtual Vocative (compare John 20:28 referred to above, and 1 Peter 2:18, Colossians 3:18ff.) may also be due to Semitic idiom.”—Pages 116, 117, of An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Professor of Divinity in the University of Cambridge, 1953 edition, England. (Bold type mine)

    IOW, this does not support that Thomas had a "Jesus-is-God" view.

    Consider the context....

    Less than two weeks previously Thomas had heard Jesus pray to his heavenly Father and say: “This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3, AV) On the fourth day after that prayer, or on his day of resurrection, Jesus sent a special message to Thomas and the other disciples by means of Mary Magdalene. “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.” (John 20:17- 18, AV) So from Jesus’ prayer and from this message through Mary Magdalene, Thomas knew who his own God was. His God was not Jesus Christ, but his God was the God of Jesus Christ. Also his Father was the Father of Jesus Christ. Thus Thomas knew that Jesus had a God whom he worshiped, namely, his heavenly Father.

    How, then, could Thomas in an ecstasy of joy at seeing the resurrected Jesus for the first time burst out with an exclamation and speak to Jesus himself as being the one and only living, true God, the God whose name is Jehovah? How could Thomas, by what he spoke, mean that Jesus was himself “the only true God” or that Jesus was God in the Second Person of a Trinity? In view of what Thomas had heard from Jesus and had been told by Jesus, how can we read such a meaning into Thomas’ words: “My Lord and my God”?

    Source of His Life — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
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  19. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

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    Hey!:grinning: so I was compelled to look for some answers after reading the quoted post above and I found some interesting stuff....
    First, this article....
    Part 2 Thomas called Jesus Lord and God – John 20:28
    And just so you don't have to read the whole thing:rolleyes:....I found this
    ...."Fourth, the Greek text actually says, “The Lord of me and the God of me[1].” In calling Jesus God, Thomas used the Greek words
    “ho theos”= the God......Therefore, Jesus cannot be a god, a mighty god, or a lesser god but is in fact almighty God. Utilizing “ho theos” John is emphatically saying Jesus is “the God.”"

    So then I found this:frowning:....
    John 20:28 Greek Text Analysis

    OMG! See what I mean about translations!:confused:
     
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  20. Tranquil Servant

    Tranquil Servant Was M.I.A for a while

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    Lol!:laughing: I read this after I already posted my last post!:p
     
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