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Is Jesus The Only Way To Heaven?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by JesusIsTheWay, Apr 6, 2005.

?
  1. Yes!

    37 vote(s)
    32.2%
  2. No!

    52 vote(s)
    45.2%
  3. I don't know.

    8 vote(s)
    7.0%
  4. There is no Heaven.

    18 vote(s)
    15.7%
  1. angellous_evangellous

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    #1 and #2 go together fairly well and really are the same point. For one thing, Jesus did teach that he laid down his life of his own power, and it was not taken from him. Only he had the power to give up his life, so Christians naturally agree with your first point. However, you are misunderstanding one critical teaching: the Roman soldiers did not kill God, they killed the human body of Jesus. God flows in and out of Jesus in a matter which makes the human body known as Jesus truly God, whether the body of Jesus is living or dead.

    Jesus Himself taught and Christians confess that Jesus gave up His life willingly: He allowed His body to be killed as a sacrifice. He didn't need to be saved. We did, and He paid the price.

    Mt 20:28 - Show Context just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."

    Mr 10:45 - Show Context For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."

    Joh 6:51 - Show Context I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

    Joh 3:16 - Show Context "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

    Joh 10:17 - Show Context For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again.

    Php 2:8 - Show Context he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross.

    #3 Again I must point to freewill here. Christians have the NT as a roadmap to a better life, and many of us are quite happy in Christ. Humanity is free to reject it.
     
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  2. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    They did not need the Saviour as God had a different arrangement for His chosen people. Their covenant with God involved lots of laws and blood sacrifices. Jesus was the culmination of the law and so we must accept him now for salvation. The laws and blood sacrifice are no longer necessary.
     
  3. scitsofreaky

    scitsofreaky Active Member

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    They didn't need one, but they were promised one.
     
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  4. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    by believing in him and getting to the father "through" him are we to believe that we have to believe he is God and our saviour, or does it mean we should believe in his teachings?

    the greek word translated as "only begotten son" in John 3:16 is "monogenes", it can also mean unique/single of its kind. it does not necessarily mean "only begotten" as it is often translated into english:
    Hebrews 11:17"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son]"
    here we know it to be translated incorrectly* here because Isaac could not have possibly been the only begotten son of Abraham since Ishmael was the first son of Abraham. Isaac could definitely be unique if he was born of Abraham and Sara at such an old age and was their only son at the time, but not the only begotten son of Abraham.

    *if we are to believe that it was Isaac that was offered and not Ishmael; who, depending on when this act happened, could have actually been the only begotten son of Abraham.
     
  5. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    We look at and rate sins,according to our own personal standards,I ask you why is that, I go one further and ask you, are you a good person.
    What will be your answer and what standard will you use,most people pat themself on the back and say they are good,according their own standards comparing themself to hardened criminals.
    I ask you ,have you ever told a lie, you more them likely have, but still profess to be a good person ,maybe in your own eyes, but according to the person you lied to, I would think you may be untrustworthy, deceptive etc. that is not the definition of good.
    My point is it will not be a question of goodness or happiness on the day of judgement but one of righteousness,it does'nt matter how good morally or happy a person is but how righteous one is and that is where Christ comes in,you will not enter heaven unless you have the righteousness of Christ applied to your account.
    If you could earn your way to heaven then Christ died in vain and the whole christian practice is useless.Everyone one of us should then go to heaven there is no righteous standard and we are all therefore good and that is and always will be relative
     
  6. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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  7. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Roli, You never answered Draka's point :- So, in essence, you are saying that someone could live like Mother Theresa and help thousands, lead a good, clean, and "sin"-free life and if they were not claiming Jesus to be their savior then they are going to be damned by God? Yet, a Christian who has committed horrendous moral and criminal violations and yet repented their sins and believed in Christ would be saved??? Where's the justice of your god in that? How is that JUST?

    Why don't you answer the question, instead of carrying on blindly with your crusade?:rolleyes:
     
  9. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    Quote:[​IMG][​IMG]Originally Posted by Draka[​IMG][​IMG]So, in essence, you are saying that someone could live like Mother Theresa and help thousands, lead a good, clean, and "sin"-free life and if they were not claiming Jesus to be their savior then they are going to be damned by God? Yet, a Christian who has committed horrendous moral and criminal violations and yet repented their sins and believed in Christ would be saved??? Where's the justice of your god in that? How is that JUST?

    Lady Lazurus I am surprized in your logic thinking that your disbelief in a God of judgement and your standing before him personally to give an account of your life really changes His sovereignty and His word, which says, the soul that sins shall perish .
    The only thing that gives you that right to disbelieve this is not absolute knowledge but of ingnorance

    Michel
    It would be nice if some would allow room for others to answer rather then expect a clear cut yes and no answers . I believed I was leading up to the answer
    "We look at and rate sins,according to our own personal standards,I ask you why is that, I go one further and ask you, are you a good person.
    What will be your answer and what standard will you use,most people pat themself on the back and say they are good,according their own standards, comparing themself to hardened criminals or even mother Teresa

    God's justice is not ours, how can we undestand the level of grace and mercy God would have towards someone who kills as opposed to a liar and the forgiveness and the ability for him to absolve someone's sins is beyond our ability to comprhend, we bring God down to our logic and reason.
    the problem is we can't have that perfect,love, mercy,grace and forgiveness towards someone, especially if they violate us directly or even indirectly,because we are so full of hypocricy, hatered, revenge, vengence,selfishness etc.etc.
    God says he is able to abundently pardon, God judges the heart unlike anything man can do.
    God sees the full picture ,the heart, motive and the ability for someone to be genuinely sorry which brings repentence leading to salvation.
    God wil forgive only when there is true repentance (that is turning away from sin)without which there will not be true forgiveness from the Lord
    You would want mercy if there was a judgement waiting for you that would inflict severe consequeces
    We see murder worse then lying,theft worse then a hatered but when we sin we do it against God not one another,
    God can forgive and restore a mass murderer, he does it everyday, talk to a few murderers,read some stories of how mass murderers have been converted to Christ.we get angry just thinking about that because our hearts are evil
    Yes, a man can kill and be forgiven and redeemed and even used by God to preach,it happened all thru the bible in the rational mind it does not seem logical but God see's the end from the beginning.
    We all need grace, mercy and forgiveness day in and day out, but we don't always deserve it
     
  10. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    OUCH! that may have hurt, if I allowed it to, but my babblings are synonomos with the Hebrew word YADA,= knowledge, where we use it today for someone who is going on and on.


    Yada` to know, learn , to perceive, to see, find out and discern ,to discriminate, distinguish ,to know by experience,to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess,to consider, be acquainted with, be skilful in, to have knowledge, be wise,to be made known, be or become known, be revealed,to make oneself known,to be perceived,to be instructed, to cause to know,

    So thanks for the compliment, I view it as babbling knowledge as you do,it appears you just have a different way to express it(babblings) ,but I'm glad we are on the same page.
     
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  11. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    By the way I don't live my life thru this forum but only use the forum to express my babblings or =yada,yada,yada,or knowledge,knowledge. As you do.

    Lady Lazarus
    If we don't respond in accordance to the manner in which you presume we should ,is there grounds for you to attempt to insult with vulgar and offensive inuenda, Maybe you should lose a few hundred Karma points or frugals.


    Quote: Originally Posted by michel Roli, You never answered Draka's point :- So, in essence, you are saying that someone could live like Mother Theresa and help thousands, lead a good, clean, and "sin"-free life and if they were not claiming Jesus to be their savior then they are going to be damned by God? Yet, a Christian who has committed horrendous moral and criminal violations and yet repented their sins and believed in Christ would be saved??? Where's the justice of your god in that? How is that JUST?


    Why don't you answer the question, instead of carrying on blindly with your crusade?

    Michael
    Blindly, I hardly think,to you ingorance of what I speak may make it appear dull to your senses, but my friend I assure you, I see clearer then I ever have in regards to what I speak,what may I ask is your purpose and or crusade in all this

    Crusade = a remedial enterprise undertaken with zeal and enthusiasm


    I confess it comes from my heart and is a crusade, I apologize ,
    But my 1st point , We only need to look within our own heart to know we are all sinners(transgressors of the law) Not our own set of laws but that of God's law that is on every man's heart, whether we choose to accept it or not, our conscience is absolute

    There is no one righteous,sinless or holy before God ,all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and mark of perfection,but who really is following His Standards ,


    We follow our own standards or that of whom we choose to esteem holy ,pious and sinless and such that suit our particular lifestyle and does not invoke guilt,,sin or punishment but promotes peace,unity and utopia. ,

    Leading a good clean life,as I already shared in my initial reponse does not constitute for standing justified before a Holy ,righteous God who will punish sin where it is found and that is usually deep within the heart hidden from the world around it.

    God says there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed,maybe just not today, but someday

    2) PointJohn 3:18 God says those who do not believe( trust and rely Jesus Christ for salvation) in the son are condemned already because they have not believed in God's one and only son

    Don't shoot the messenger

    Christ is the one who forgives and redeems, God looks at hate, as murder, lust as the act of adultry,how can I explain God's standard and who am I to say he can't forgive and absolve sin. He justifies according to his mercy and grace ,not according to our vengeful,vandictive,selfish,evil,hateful, hearts,our problem is we ahve a hard time to forgive and show mercy,genuine love and compassion for those who violate us,remembering our sin is not against each other as much as it is towards God himself.

    You may live in peace toward your society but the hidden sins of the heart God will expect recompense(payment) or acceptance thru forgiveness by the sacrifice of His son


    Do you think liars, thieves,murderers etc, will go free forever, maybe thru some loop hole or injustice in the justice system today,but the ultimate case of each individual have yet to be settled in a court system unbeknown to us will be unlike any human court has ever seen .

    You will never know what true justice is until you stand before God, the problem is he already made a way for all the world to be just and freed before a Holy God, many just don't choose to accept it ,because with it comes a standard to live by and we all want to do our own thing our own way and in our own time,so be it,

    How is that just ?, you ASK, what true justice is ,will truly cause many to hang their heads in shame
     
  12. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    what of the positive promise that the covenant w/ the Nation of Israel will last forever? Is it that G-d has broken that promise?
     
  13. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
    Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
    Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
    Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
    Rom 4:9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
    Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
    Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
    Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.



    Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

    1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God


    Rom11:1I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
    3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"?*
    4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."*
    5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
    7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
    8 Just as it is written:"God has given them a spirit of stupor,Eyes that they should not see
    And ears that they should not hear,To this very day."*
    9 And David says:"Let their table become a snare and a trap,A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,And bow down their back always."*
    Israel's Rejection Not Final
    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles
    12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them
    15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
    18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
    20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
    22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, *goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
    24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
    25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    26 And so all Israel will be *saved, as it is written:"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    27 For this is My covenant with them,When I take away their sins."*
    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
    29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. \
    30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
    31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

    Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Israel has been cut off becuase of their unbelief, and the gentiles have obtained the promise,
    Verse 23 if they do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted in to the branch
    .God has made so many covenants with His people ,
    Is it that He has broken his PROMISES or have His people extremely violated the covenants that were made with them ,it takes to to make a covenant
    I tend to think his people, but remembering what he says ,just because your a jew means nothing as far as favor for salvation and redemption.
    A Jew to the Lord is one of circumcision of the heart,not any longer of the flesh
     
  14. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Funny you should ask. I've been doing an incredible amount of reading lately and coming up with some interesting questions.

    First, no I do not believe God breaks his promises and yes the covenant w/the Nation of Israel will last forever. Now, that could be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the culmination of that covenant and that only by accepting Him as Messiah can the Jewish people continue their covenant.

    Or it may mean that God doesn't require the Jews to believe in the Messiah because they already hold a special covenant with him (which idea would freak out many Christians).

    Sorry, this is such a short rambling answer, but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you and yet I seriously need to finalize my speech for the seminar tomorrow and still get up at 5 a.m. (ugh).

    I'll try to put something more coherent together later.
     
  15. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    Just as the only thing that gives you the right to believe is your faith (which by virtue of the fact it is faith can not be absolute knowledge), which I don't share.
     
  16. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    Personally I try not to believe eveything I read.:biglaugh:

    sorry couldn't help it. :eek:

    wa:do
     
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  17. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    Is there some reason you're posting multiple replies to the same posts? With differing levels of ire in each reply?
    The only expectation I have from responses is that they actually address what they're responding to, not go off on some apparent tangent that has to be waded through more than once before you can even see that there may have been just the slightest hint of a reply amongst the rest of it. I assume that the easiest way to answer a question is directly...silly me for thinking that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
    I can quote reams of song lyrics and hide my answers amongst them, but in the end it doesn't help anyone understand what I'm trying to say...it's just a lot of something written by someone else, taken out of context and slapped on a page.
    By the way...I think the word you're looking for is innuendo, and as far as I'm aware I didn't make any indirect implications. I'm pretty sure I was quite direct.:D:D
     
  18. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    My friend, this is more then faith in action ,but I guess you will never know for sure what walking with God is like,unless you cross over with child like faith, only then will God enlighten you as to the experience and absolute knowledge of Him I share.
    Entering into a personal living intimate encounter with God,thru faith(KEY WORD) in the christian religion is what sets the faith believing Christian apart from other religions.
    Jesus is alive living in you,it is supernatural and uncomprehensionable to human logic
    Faith unlocks the door to experience and encounter God,where He comes to dwell with you and in you
    Just merely posessing faith in a belief and building on that with works and practices would seem to me to be an empty and dry pursuit, as it was for years, before, I fully gave my whole life over to him.

    It was then that God deposited himself inside me thru His Holy Spirit,that is the assurance and inner witness I have that can attest to the absolute knowledge of His existence and presence in my life and His reliability of His word as truth.

    Much like when you take a pill that is said to sedate you and relieve pain.
    You had faith in what you read and were told it would do,but belief and faith working together never gave you the experience of being painfree and happy, it was faith and belief that enabled your action to take the medication and experience for yourself the effects of it.
    The experience I would say, was not faith, but faith produced the ability to act leading to the experience.
    This led to absolute knowledge that it did exactly what it was designed to do and what others said it would do.

    Mind you, not all who say they are christians are Christians and are obviously not walking with God in that personal intimate relationship, as you can tell by the fruit of their life, if you watch them long enough.
     
  19. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    By the way, the topic answer is, Yes Jesus is the only way!!!to heaven, to the God of creation, to eternal life, to forgiveness, to redemption,to salvation, to mercy, to righteousness,and so on and so on...........!
     
  20. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Please don't make the mistake that only christians have this kind of relationship with their god. Taoists have chi (living force of Tao) living, moving, etc... in us. Shamans have the sacred of all alive and the great source within themselves. Etc... What makes your experience right, or accurate, and the rest wrong, or inaccurate? Have you ever had an intimate relationship with Tao? Or Pan, Zeus, Kami, Diana, etc...? Or perhaps even an intimate relationship with a tree spirit, animal spirit, guiding spirits, etc...? If not, how can you say they are wrong? I have a constant intimate relationships with the spirits, how can you accurately say I am wrong?
     
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