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Featured Is Jesus the God of the Bible? Introductory and other evidence.

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by YeshuaRedeemed, Jun 30, 2018.

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  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it that the words of God is like food? Food for our souls?

    Deuteronomy 8:3 New International Version (NIV)
    He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. Matthew 4:4 Luke 4:4

    When we read verses we should understand it [chew it, digest it like food] we just don't blurt it out indiscriminately but rather examine it because it is important - and that is not stretching.

    So to continue....


    I think it would be better to reveal the whole context of the verse than have it declared in a short form. It is like calling a person "Pssssttt!" when the person has a given name.

    1 Timothy 3:16 New International Version (NIV)
    Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

    He appeared in the flesh,
    was vindicated by the Spirit,
    was seen by angels,
    was preached among the nations,
    was believed on in the world,
    was taken up in glory.

    - where is God was manifest in the flesh? That is the problem when people jump to conclusion and replace the verse with a misleading banner that 1 Tim 3:16 reads God was manifest in the flesh but when it shown fully the tag line disappears.

    Here it is written "true godliness is great" What is godliness in its definition?

    noun: godliness
    the quality of being devoutly religious; piety.
    1. conforming to the laws and wishes of God; devout; pious.
    2. coming from God; divine.
    So godliness is different from who is God. The Lord Jesus Christ came from God as he mentioned it in:

    John 16:25-27 New International Version (NIV)
    “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

    When the Lord Jesus Christ said he came from God, he really mean that he is not God otherwise he would not mention "I came from God" based on the verse above.
     
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  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 1:18-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

    It is erroneous to conclude that the Holy Spirit is the Father. There is none conclusively stating that the Holy Spirit is the Father. The Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Son. And this is elaborated by the Lord Jesus Christ himself in:


    John 14:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
    But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

    The Father sends the Holy Spirit - so the Father is not the Holy Spirit.


    John 4:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
    God is Spirit
    , and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    The Lord God in his nature is spirit.


    Ephesians 4:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
    There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

    The one Spirit mentioned in Eph 4:4 is God

    However the Holy Spirit is not God and not even the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact the Holy Spirit is given by God to people who obey Him:

    Acts 5:32 New King James Version (NKJV)
    And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

    And the best example is the Lord Jesus Christ whom God anointed with the Holy Spirit as we could read in:

    Acts 10:38 New King James Version (NKJV)
    how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

    God did the anointing
    Jesus of Nazareth was anointed by God
    God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit

    The Holy Spirit is not God
    Jesus of Nazareth is not God
    God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit

    Where did the doctrine about the Trinity came from? It was years in development starting with a man named Tertullian:


    Tertullian (/tərˈtʌliən/), full name Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, c. 155 – c. 240 AD,[1] was a prolific early Christian author from Carthage in the Roman province of Africa.[2] Of Berber origin,[3][4][5][6][7] he was the first Christian author to produce an extensive corpus of Latin Christian literature. He also was an early Christian apologist and a polemicist against heresy, including contemporary Christian Gnosticism.[8] Tertullian has been called "the father of Latin Christianity"[9][10] and "the founder of Western theology."[11]

    Though conservative in his worldview, Tertullian originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine. He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas). According to The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "Tertullian's trinity [is] not a triune God, but rather a triad or group of three, with God as the founding member".[12] A similar word had been used earlier in Greek,[a] though Tertullian gives the oldest extant use of the terminology as later incorporated into the Nicene Creed at the Second Ecumenical Council, the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, or as the Athanasian Creed, or both.[13] Other Latin formulations that first appear in his work are "three persons, one substance" as the Latin "tres personae, una substantia", ('consubstantial', in English), itself from the Koine Greek "treis hypostases, homoousios").[11] Influenced by Stoic philosophy, the "substance" of Tertullian, however, was a material substance that did not refer to a single God, but to the sharing of a portion of the substance of the Father (the only being who was fully God) with the Son and, through the Son, with the Holy Spirit.[12] He wrote his understanding of the three members of the trinity after becoming a Montanist.[11]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian

    Is Tertullian an apostle?
    He is not an apostle. He formulated the Trinity, probably a hundred years after the last apostle John died at 100 A.D.
     
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  3. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    We shouldn't jump into conclusions, immediately. I think it is best to read the entire conversation of the Lord Jesus Christ with his apostles.

    John 14:7-28 New King James Version (NKJV)
    “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

    Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

    Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

    “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

    “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

    “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

    Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

    Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

    “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

    It is without doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ did not claim to be the Father.
    The Lord Jesus said the Father is in him and dwells in him
    The Lord Jesus does not speak on his own but what the Father tells him to speak
    The Lord Jesus Christ did not come in his own authority but of the Father's authority
    In the end the Lord Jesus said My Father is greater than I

    The Lord Jesus Christ was sent by the Father
    The Father is greater than the Lord Jesus Christ
    Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is not God

    In a much later chapter this is read:

    John 17:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Jesus spoke these words
    , lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    Who is the only true God according to the Lord Jesus Christ ? The Father is the only true God.
    Who is the Lord Jesus Christ according to himself? Jesus Christ whom the only true God [the Father] have sent

    What does the world know because the Lord Jesus Christ said the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive
    - a 3-in-1 or 3 gods instead of the only true God. Why is that so? Because it neither sees Him nor knows Him
     
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  4. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, did you not read where I said I don't believe in the Trinity. None of what I presented is saying there is a Trinity, just the opposite.
    Please don't muddy the waters with something you know I don't believe.

    If the child was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and she was found with child of the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is the Father. (see, I'm not presenting 2 different persons here, but saying the Holy Spirit and the Father are just different titles for one and the same Spirit)

    You said The Holy Spirit is not God - What about Acts 5:3 Peter said Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit , then in the next verse Acts 5:4 thou hast not lied to men, but unto God

    What about 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 v4-the same Spirit - v5 the same Lord - v6 but it is the same God which worketh all in all. v11- But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit

    What about 1 Corinthians 6:19 - your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, compared to 2 Corinthians 6:16 - for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. So you are obviously wrong - the Holy Spirit is God



     
    #44 TrueBeliever37, Jul 3, 2018
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  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    All of the above were the words of the Lord our savior, 'THE SON OF MAN,' the MOST HIGH in the creation and the only one who could pay the ransom price for the sinful body of mankind in which he had developed.

    Only one man, who, at the age of 365, ascended to the throne of the most high, where he was anointed as the heir and successor to that throne and it was he [The lesser JHWH, the son and heir to the MOST HIGH in the creation] who came down and blessed Abraham, saying to him; "In Blessing I will bless you and in multiplying, I will multiply you.

    It was he who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people. I will put my words into his mouth and he will tell the people everything I command, and whoever does not heed MY words that he shall speak in MY name, I will punish."
    ,
    It was he, who said to God, "Sacrifices and offerings you did not ask for, but a body you have prepared for me, etc."

    That body was the man Jesus, who he filled with his spirit/words, [My words are spirit and it is the spirit that gives life, said the Lord through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus.]

    Spiritual beings do not have the animal power of reproduction and must choose their heir and successor, which was the case when the spirit descended upon the man Jesus as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee.

    Hebrews 5:7; In his life on earth, Jesus made his prayers and requests with loud cries and tear to God, who could save him from death. Because he was humble and devoted God heard him. But even though he was 'A' son of God, he learned through suffering to become obedient. When he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, and it was then that God declared him to be high priest in the priestly order of Melchizedek.

    Hebrews 5:5; But Jesus did not take upon himself the honor of being high priest. Instead, God made him high priest with these words, [On the day he was baptized] "You are my son, TODAY I have become your father." See the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22.
     
    #45 The Anointed, Jul 3, 2018
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  6. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Correct! It was the SON OF MAN, the lesser JHWH or SON OF GOD who filled the man Jesus with his spirit/words, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, TODAY I have begotten thee. See the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22.

    Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

    Sandalphron and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron"s twin, is in fact Elijah"s angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

    Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "The lesser YHVH" resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron.The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.
     
    #46 The Anointed, Jul 3, 2018
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  7. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Ah you don't believe the Trinity perhaps it is Oneness espoused by the Pentecostal.

    Oneness Pentecostalism derives its distinctive name from its teaching on the Godhead, which is popularly referred to as the Oneness doctrine.[2] This doctrine states that there is one God, a singular divine Spirit, who manifests himself in many ways, including as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct and eternal persons posited by Trinitarian theology. Oneness believers baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, commonly referred to as Jesus' name baptism, rather than using the Trinitarian formula. It is somewhat similar to Sabellianism [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism]

    However the Bible clearly separates who is the Father, who is the Son and who is the Holy Spirit.

    The misunderstanding is when a bible verse is read, people jump into conclusion.

    Your conclusion: If the child was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and she was found with child of the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is the Father. (see, I'm not presenting 2 different persons here, but saying the Holy Spirit and the Father are just different titles for one and the same Spirit)

    Who made Mary pregnant?
    • Is it the Son
    • Is it the Holy Spirit
    • Is it the Father
    • All of them
    • Or just two of them
    For me I would stick on the Bible for answers and not derive on wrong interpretations and assumptions.

    The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father through the Name of Jesus as the Lord Jesus said:

    John 14:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
    But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

    Unless one would accuse of the Lord Jesus Christ, a meaningless talk? But the thing is the Lord Jesus did not lie about anything - including this.. Or you intend to rephrase what he said into "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit who is also God, whom the Father, who is also the Holy Spirit will send Himself in my name..."

    Who send who? The Father sends the Holy Spirit through the name of Jesus Christ. - that is what Jesus said.

    What is the nature of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is a Spirit as the Bible says came from God [who is the Father], the Holy Spirit is sent for the apostles to remember all the things Jesus said to them.

    Revelation 1:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
    John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

    Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

    Revelation 3:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
    “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

    ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

    Revelation 4:5 New King James Version (NKJV)
    And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

    Revelation 5:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
    And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

    Remember what the Lord Jesus Christ said?

    John 14:26 New King James Version (NKJV)
    But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

    As Apostle John revealed, the Holy Spirit is not one, not two but seven [ 7 ] spirits of God sent out into the seven churches in the earth. In your analogy "the Holy Spirit is God" that makes your gods more than 3.
     
  8. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Hindu triad God is Brahman, the divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all must return, then there is Vishnu, the saviour, and Shiva, the destroyer, who, like Satan is also represented as a serpent, but shiva destroys only the old in order to make way for the new. The root to the word “BRAHMAN” originally meant “SPEECH”, much the same as the “LOGOS” is said to mean ‘WORD.

    The term, “LOGOS” pertains to the very plan from the outset. [The creation of another universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, 'Another Son of God,' develops.] In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.

    Krishna is the eighth manifestation of Vishnu, in him is the seven preceding spirits, at the close of this period of universal activity, Krishna enters into Brahman as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

    Balarama, who is said to be the elder brother of Krishna is the ninth avatar.

    The tenth and last incarnation of Vishnu the saviour is Kalki or Kalkin, who is yet to appear at the close of the fourth or Kali age, when the world has become wholly depraved, for the final destruction of the wicked, for the re-establishment of righteousness upon the earth, and the renovation of all creation with a return to a new age of purity.

    According to some, Vishnu will be revealed in the sky, mounted on a white horse, with a drawn sword in his hand and blazing like a comet: ------Mon Williams, Indian Wisdom, p. 335.
     
  9. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I'm not Hindu.

    upload_2018-7-4_13-5-57.jpeg
     
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Of course you aren't.

    You would never believe in a triad god as do the Hindu, or that that Krishna was self created in the womb of his mother body, who had not received human semen into her uterus, nor would you believe that the baby Krishna, was hidden in another country [Not Egypt] to protect him from the King [Not Herod] who saw him as a threat to his throne and wanted him dead.

    Only fools would believe such things, wouldn't they?
     
    #50 The Anointed, Jul 4, 2018
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  11. YeshuaRedeemed

    YeshuaRedeemed Revelation 3:10

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  12. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but you're not sticking with Bible answers. The scripture gave the answer to your question, you just won't accept it. She was found with child of the Holy Spirit. That makes the Holy Spirit the Father.

    Those 7 Spirits are before his throne. It doesn't say he consists of 7 Spirits.

    Also still waiting for the rest of the answers to the post you started responding to. Especially waiting for the answer about the one regarding who created everything.

    I also noticed how you skipped over responding about the lie Ananias told, and about our body being the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is also called the living God.

    You keep flooding the page with info trying to refute what someone else believes. Put your canned responses aside, and debate with me and what I believe.
     
    #52 TrueBeliever37, Jul 4, 2018
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  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes the holy Spirit is God. As Jesus said "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

    And:

    Ephesians 4:6
    One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
     
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  14. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Correct! It was the lesser JHWH, The Son of the Most High in the creation, who had filled the man Jesus with his spirit on the day of his baptism as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my Son, this Day I have begotten thee."
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    And what is your problem with the third paragraph?
     
  16. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Where is your scripture that says there is a lesser YHWH?

    Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God is one YHWH Deuteronomy 6:4

    Who created everything? Was it YHWH as it says in Isaiah 44:24 or was it the Messiah as it says in Colossians 1:14-16 ?

    Or is it just possible, that the Messiah was YHWH dwelling in a fleshly body, and both verses are correct?
     
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  17. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The oldest COPIES of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls

    Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

    I believe, and will later reveal, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 5th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.

    Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

    Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

    Enoch, the most important man in the OT and the NT, and yet he has been rejected by both the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.

    "The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

    And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face.

    [Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael."]

    And the Most High, (who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel, which could save but one man) said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

    The Great and glorious simulacrum which is the sacrifice that God has prepared for us, and the blue-print of the new Temple of God [The glorious incorruptible bodies of Light] which is to replace his old temporary earthly tabernacle/tent [The Body of Mankind] as the ruler of the creation, of which Enoch was the chosen cornerstone, dies in the process of involution, to be the saviour of we in evolution, This he does by releasing all the righteous spirits on which he had evolved, from the least to the greatest, and Enoch was the first, the cornerstone to which the righteous dead were gathered.

    And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the MOST HIGH in the creation, Enoch is CHRIST=The anointed one]

    And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

    365, is the number of days in a calendar year. The Lamb of God who takes on the sins of the world is to be a one year old unblemished Lamb. Enoch the anointed one, is the unblemished Lamb of God.

    Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

    Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.

    Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "The lesser YHVH" resurfaces. It is also said that Metatron. The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.

    The Lesser JHWH, The Son of God and equal to God, who was chosen by Abraham as his God.

    Jesus, who was filled with the spirit of the Lord that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, this day I have begotten thee," said to Nicodemus, "And no man has ascended to heaven 'EXCEPT,' he who came down, even the Son of Man who 'IS' in heaven.

    Christ is the English term for the Greek (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."
     
    #57 The Anointed, Jul 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I've read the Ethoipic Enoch quite a few times and Enoch is shown the Son of man more than once. And the Son of man is not an angel or Enoch himself. I don't believe you got it right at all.

    Jesus the Son of man is One with God. He's not the lesser YHVH. In fact there is only One YHVH as true believer points out.

    Not even the angels can ascend and descend between heaven and earth. Jacob saw them going up and down upon a ladder. This ladder was likely symbolic: they cannot do it by their own power, but only by the power of God. Jacob named that place Bethel, which means the House of God, and said that place was the gate of heaven. Then he anointed the rock that was his pillow with oil. (Genesis 28:12-18)

    In Proverbs 30:4 it is clear that only God can descend and ascend by His own power. In John 3:13 we see that the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) is the only one who has done this. Therefore, this proves that Jesus is God the Father. Because Prov 30:4 makes clear it is the Father of the Son that ascends and descends. So the answer to the riddle in Prov 30:4 is that the name of the Father and the Son are one and the same and it is Jesus. And, I tell you something else: to ascend into heaven, He must first descend into the earth. (John 6:62, Ephesians 4:9)

    In John 1:51, Jesus identifies Himself with the Bethel of Jacob. For He claims that they would see angels ascending and descending upon Him. In other words, Jesus is the ladder that the angels use, and He is the gate of heaven. And no one can ascend or descend but by His power. Furthermore, Jesus is Beth El (the House of God, or the living temple of God. John 2:19) and He is the rock (Daniel 2:34) that was anointed. (Acts 10:38) Which means He is the anointed one of God. (the Messiah) Jesus symbolized as a pillow because He is the rest. (Matthew 11:29)

    So Jesus is not the "lesser YHVH" or Enoch. Jesus is YHVH!
     
  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; See Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

    Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put my words into his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command. And whoever does not heed MY words that he will speak in my name I will punjsh.

    Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, concerning the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

    Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

    John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in “HIM” who sent me, has eternal life.

    These are the words of the Lord as spoken by his earthly host body Jesus. John 17: 11; HOLY Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me, etc. Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Acts 3:19; “Repent then and turn to God, (Not to Jesus, but to God) so that He (God) will forgive your sins. If you do, times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and He will send Jesus, who is the Messiah that he has already CHOSEN for you.” The man Jesus, was chosen and made both Lord and saviour by “Who I Am”.

    Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

    Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

    Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom I am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

    1st Timothy 1:1; “From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of “GOD OUR SAVIOUR” and Christ Jesus “OUR HOPE.”

    John 14: 24; “And the word which you hear is not mine, but ‘THE’ Fathers who sent me. Not “MY Father” but THE Father of us all: “Our Father who is in heaven.”

    Whose words were these in reference to the body of Jesus which had been filled by the spirit=information=words of the Lord which had descended upon him in the form of a dove? “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”

    They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by “Who I Am,” who raised the body of Jesus, the earthly temple, which had been filled with his spirit.

    Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

    1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

    2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. _________________________It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who said through his obedient servant Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”
     
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, of course. This was to fulfill prophecy of course. And Jesus is fully human. Flesh and blood. He's the Messiah; the "Anointed" Son of man. We don't dispute that you know that right? You brought up a lot of scriptures proving the humanity of Jesus and I agree 100% with the humanity of Jesus. Definitely. But, He was also God manifest.

    The revelation of Jesus is precious and revealed to only the few. Remember that when He said they must eat His flesh and drink His blood many of his disciples turned back from following Him? (John 6:66) Only the 12 disciples understood (enough) what He really meant by that statement. Peter said basically you have the Words of Life. So Peter understood that much that the bread of Life is the Word of Life.

    If we search the gospels; Jesus gives the revelation of who He is slowly and in increments. He reserved the greatest revelations for his closest disciples. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: (Mark 4:11)

    Jesus is a "mystery" as it says in 1 Timothy 3:16. "Great is the mystery of godliness" So we cannot assume that it's easy to see who and what Jesus truly is. It was in fact not easy as further scriptures will show us.

    This made the prophet Isaiah even ask the question "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?" (see John 12:38)

    So no one sees Him for who He really is unless God shows them. Some saw a prophet. Some even saw the Messiah or the Son of God. Once you got one revelation it led to a deeper one. Because it's like when you see the sunrise. There is only at first a little light and then there is more and more until the full brightness of day. The revelation of Jesus is like that. He is the Sun of righteousness. The Bright and Morning Star.

    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (John 8:45)


    All these people who believed in Jesus even a little bit were taught by God. But God had further things to show them if they remained in the light.

    Only those taught by the Father could know who the Son is and no one could know the Father unless the Son showed them who He was. So not only did they not know the Son, but they did not yet know the Father either.

    All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)

    Jesus did eventually reveal the Father to His very closest disciples.

    Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? (John 14:8-9)

    The world at large knew Him not. In 1 John 3:1-6 we find that literally the world did not know God who was in the world.

    Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)

    And John 1:5 says:
    And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:5)
     
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