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Is Jesus, the Christ?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Ardhanariswar, Oct 9, 2004.

  1. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    i found this on the Christian forum.

    "1) The Messiah is preceded by Elijah the prophet who, with the Messiah, unifies the family (Malachi 4:5-6), which is contradicted by Jesus in Matthew 10:34-37.

    2) The Messiah re-establishes the Davidic dynasty through the messiah's own children (Daniel 7:13-14). But Jesus had no children.

    3) The Messiah brings an eternal peace between all nations, between all peoples, and between all people (Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Ezekiel 39:9). Obviously there is no peace. Furthermore, Jesus said that his purpose in coming was to bring a sword, and not peace (see Matthew 10:34, as referenced above.)

    4) The Messiah brings about the universal world-wide conversion of all peoples to Judaism, or at least to Ethical Monotheism (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Zechariah 8:23; Isaiah 11:9; Zechariah 14:9,16). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

    5) The Messiah brings about an end to all forms of idolatry (Zechariah 13:2). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

    6) The Messiah brings about a universal recognition that the Jewish idea of God is God (Isaiah 11:9). But the world remains steeped in idolatry.

    7) The Messiah leads the world to become vegetarian (Isaiah 11:6-9). It isn't.

    8) The Messiah gathers to Israel, all of the twelve tribes (Ezekiel 36:24). Many of the ten lost tribes remain lost.

    9) The Messiah rebuilds The Temple (Isaiah 2:2; Ezekiel 37:26-28). It hasn't been rebuilt.

    10) There will be no more famine (Ezekiel 36:29-30). People starve to death every day.

    11) After the Messiah comes, death will eventually cease (Isaiah 25:8). People die every day.

    12) Eventually the dead will be resurrected (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13; Isaiah 43:5-6);

    13) The nations of the earth will help the Jews, materially (Isaiah 60:5-6; 60:10-12;

    14) The Jews will be sought out for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23);

    15) All weapons will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9,12);

    16) The Nile will run dry (Isaiah 11:15)

    17) Monthly, the trees of Israel will yield their fruit (Ezekiel 47:12);
    Each tribe of Israel will receive and settle their inherited land (Ezekiel 47:13-13);

    18) The nations of the earth will recognize that they have been wrong, that the Jews have been right, and that the sins of the Gentile nations, their persecutions and the murders they committed, have been borne by the Jewish people (Isaiah 53)
    "

    so is Jesus the messiah? can any christians on this forum give any arguments to cover these predictions of the Messiah, as "Well, its going to happen...soon...i think..."

    maybe the Jews were right. maybe the messiah has not cometh yet.
     
  2. Watcher

    Watcher The Gunslinger

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    -------2) The Messiah re-establishes the Davidic dynasty through the messiah's own children (Daniel 7:13-14). But Jesus had no children. --------

    Lol. Have you by any chance read "The Da Vinci Code?" Its a very interesting, thought-provoking read.
     
  3. Doc

    Doc Space Chief

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    Good book and controvertial but suggests the idea that the Gospels were originally changed to benefit those in charge of the Church and keep women from powers of authority. Also suggested that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and had a child or children even.
     
  4. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    ya, i read it. its fiction though the theory of mary magdalene having jesus baby and making the french royal family is still there.

    hmm...

    but what i wonder is, if these things are not fulfilled by Jesus, who is the messiah? while the world was marveling at Jesus, could there have been another messiah waiting to come along?
     
  5. meogi

    meogi Well-Known Member

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    He hasn't come yet. So say my Jewish friends. And I believe that list is why...
     
  6. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Interviewer: So the true Messiah hasn't come yet?


    GOD: You are ALL Messiahs. If this is a prophecy that you feel has to BE fulfilled, most likely you will see Messiahs wherever you turn. The TRUTH is that you ALL have the capacity to BE "Christ-like."


    Hello It's Me: An Interview With GOD
    Jesus The Christ- pg. 73
     
  7. blood-lord14

    blood-lord14 Member

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    you don't have to blow your casket captain dead bucket.
    messiah in numericals can euqal 666
    so wherever you turn you can't expect to find a "good"
    in this world.
    a event such as this is not a prophecy
    it is a argument of religous beliefs and etc.
    to be "christ-like" we would be praying to god for no reason
    we would use up our powers until we are sacrificed on something
    most likely a wooden cross,but that's not my point
    knowone is "christ-like" it's absurd to follow someone who has a short lifespan
    and end up manipulated by your own beliefs in future events.
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    How so?
    I Haven't a clue as to what you mean by that; please explain.
    What event are you talking about ?
    To be "Christ-like" would be going around the world, spreading Love and peace; trying to make everyone healthy, and helping the poor. There's no need for a cross, now.

    Again, I'm not sure we're speaking the same language, I really can't make out what you mean; could you explain, please ?
     
  9. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Main Entry: mes·si·ah [​IMG]
    Pronunciation: m&-'sI-&
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Hebrew mAshIah & Aramaic meshIhA, literally, anointed
    1 capitalized a : the expected king and deliverer of the Jews b : [size=-1]JESUS [/size]1
    2 : a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause
    - mes·si·ah·ship [​IMG] /-"ship/ noun

    Yes, I think the Messiah foretold by Judaic scripture was Jesus. However that fact was obscured by the Judaic clergy of the day for their own reasons. If Jesus was the Messiah, what was the place of the Sanhedrin any more? Were they "out of a job"? No longer the object of respect and reputation? No longer in "authority"?

    They reacted like any materially threatened group of society. They denied, poisoned the well, cast aspersion, and finally orchestrated the death of the object of their fear.

    This is not a condemnation of Jews in general, but rather a clergy that had outlived its God given purpose and begun to worry more about their "status" than their "obligations". It has happened to other priesthood.

    "Messiah" is specific to Judaism, so another word would be better to examine the status of Jesus and the other great independent prophets. Muhammed calls These enlightened souls "Apostles of God". The Baha`i faith usually refers to Them all as "Manifestations of God" or "Divine Messengers".

    In that essence Jesus was "Messiah", so were Abraham , Zoroaster, Moses and Krshna before Him before Him and so were Buddha, Muhammed, the Bab and Baha`u'llah. There were others too, some of Whom have not had their names preserved in history nor have their "books" survived the passage of time. Yet Their divine origin, message and teachings are part of the "Cause of God".
    "Praised be Thou, O Lord my God! I implore Thee by Them Who are the Tabernacles of Thy Divine holiness, Who are the Manifestations of Thy transcendent unity and the Day-Springs of Thine inspiration and revelation, to grant that Thy servants may not be kept back from this Divine Law which, at Thy will and according to Thy pleasure, hath branched out from Thy most great Ocean. Do Thou, then, ordain for them that which Thou didst ordain for Thy chosen ones and for the righteous among Thy creatures, whose constancy in Thy Cause the tempests of trials have failed to shake, and whom the tumults of tests have been powerless to hinder from magnifying Thy most exalted Word -- the Word through Which the heavens of men's idle fancies and vain imaginations have been split asunder. Thou art, verily, the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Knowing."
    (Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 27)

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  10. blood-lord14

    blood-lord14 Member

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    you don't understand because you didn't link my sentences together
    and maybe you should check out more bible prophecy related sites
    to know how i got that messiah=666;.
     
  11. mormonman

    mormonman Ammon is awesome

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    What are you talking about? :confused: The number 666 has nothing to do w/ Christ, it is the # of the devil. Anyway, duh Jesus is the Christ. Most of the prophecies you (ardhanariswar) referred to were prophecies of Christ's second coming
     
  12. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    Taken literally, none of those prophecies match up. But if they were infact about the 2nd coming, then we'd have to wait for that all to happen. How do you know if a phophecy is talking about the first coming or the second?
     
  13. blood-lord14

    blood-lord14 Member

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    WHAT DO WE CARE ABOUT THE FIRST?
    the second matters most
    hell praise about a third and hope the earth lasts that long
    whynot four comon lets bid on eachothers souls for a while eh?
     
  14. Sonic247

    Sonic247 Well-Known Member

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    1) Elijah first- Matthew 17:10"And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

    2) Davids dynasty-
    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

    That isn't talking about an earthly kingdom

    John 18:36- Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    He has kids.

    Galations4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

    3)Peace between nations-Isaiah 2-4: And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    This will happen but if you read the rest of Isaiah it say how it is neccasary for God to suffer first,

    Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
     
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  15. blood-lord14

    blood-lord14 Member

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    yes the works of god are very selfish but hey look at the bright side
    i'm the only one to actually notice that fault of "holy" life of a liar
    your god is nothing more than a mistake created by a group of liars and believers who decided to dedicate their lifes into the absurd lies of biblical events.....jesus was a drunky,jesus is stupid and evil,jesus will not succeed against me.
     
  16. Sonic247

    Sonic247 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is not selfish, it's better to give then recieve and he gave his life.

    Galations 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

    Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
     
  17. mormonman

    mormonman Ammon is awesome

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    How do you, bloodlord, have the gaul to say these things about Christ? W/o his atonement, you, and I for that matter, would go straight to hell. Christ is the Son of God and should be treated as such. I would love to see you give your life to the service of your fellow beings. I would also love to see you try to take on the sins of the world upon yourself to save the human race from eternal damnation. With that in mind, put a cork in it.
     
  18. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    i think blood lord just wants some deeply needed attention...
     
  19. Muhhamad Abdul Salam

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    The Prophet Jesus was the Messiah and writer of the Bible but not the Son for Allah has no son because there is only one god.
     
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  20. Muhhamad Abdul Salam

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    Also forgot to mention/confirm that Jesus' birth was devine and his mother was Mary. Everything about Jesus is true except for whatever is not written in the Holy Qur'an.
     
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