TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
Since the modern image of Jesus is inaccurate I would have to say yes.
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Is Jesus on the dashboard a graven image?
- Thread starter dfnj
- Start date
Since the modern image of Jesus is inaccurate I would have to say yes.
Long before that cartoon appeared were the lyrics to We Won't Get Fooled Again, an anti-war song that mourned "I know that the hypnotized never lie..." what it means is they don't know that they lie.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I would leave that up to conscience.
However we don't know what Jesus looked like other than he had a beard
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Wouldn't the Bible itself be considered a Graven image?
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
According to Yahweh, it only becomes a problem when you carry out the second part of the commandment:
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YAHWEH thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons unto the third and fourth of them that hate me;" ---- Exodus 20:5 KJV edited
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YAHWEH thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons unto the third and fourth of them that hate me;" ---- Exodus 20:5 KJV edited
uh huh, and they destroyed nehushtan because they worshiped the image and didn't raise the uraeus.
Nehushtan
http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/serpent-symbolism.html
it is these that st patrick drove out of ireland
http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/idr/idr21.htm
74x12
Well-Known Member
I don't use images like that myself. But I don't judge people (as idol worshipers) just because they have a plastic Jesus figurine.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Exactly it. And unlike most people, I don't have a "everyone but me" blindspot. I know fully that there are times that I am misinformed or biased. I just don't care.
You're right, I can't see it that way. Partly because I lived on the US/Mexico border for a time, and originally did buy the human rights angle. Until I realized that these "suffering" immigrants often did little to give back to the community that hosted them, while the old or poor became progressively poorer. There was a video I was watching of elderly Italians that had to dig through trash while immigrants were complaining about no wifi, while they basically were taking the pensions of other people as food and services.
Human rights? Don't make me laugh!
I understand most problems from two sides. But ultimately, the case of "human rights" falls short. Immigrants are already given rights as guests. And in their homelands, they are perfectly capable of improving their situation. They instead bring their problems with them. Playing the "poor suffering me" violin. I'm unemployed, I live with my folks, and when they die maybe I'll get inheritance. Maybe not. I work to become self-employed. I don't collect welfare, unemployment, or foodstamps. I spend money out of pocket in advertising and have less than $2k to my name. I will keep working until I either run out of money or actually get some success. I understand that the reality of the world is that you can change your situation. I don't ask for help even when I probably need it. So yeah, I have zero sympathy for "human rights" when as an American simply trying to become independent in many cases I would get hit with people telling me I need to pay for this or that license (I'm thankfully exempt from some of this). People not even appreciating help when they probably could do much worse.
These countries are bad, because they are poorly run. They are poorly run, because either the citizens themselves are trash, or because there is an oppressive regime in power. But Aung San Suu Kyi (see the movie The Lady in 2011) stayed in her country even under oppression of a violent regime. I am staying in my home despite zero income. I'm gonna work hard using whatever resources I have. So no, I do not buy that angle. It's an excuse. You can be dirt poor and still manage to make a difference somehow. Or you can whine and complain about being oppressed while your free food is taking money from other people.
=================================
Back on topic. Graven images came from the usage of teraphim.
Teraphim - Wikipedia
If one understands this, suddenly the law has more context.
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Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Even the Holy of Holies was a violation.
I was under the impression that the ban was on graven images of God.
If that's right, then Jesus made it perfectly clear again and again that he wasn't God, so there isn't a problem.
dfnj
Well-Known Member
I like your avatar. It made me think of this scene:
It's funny how none of the people looked like Jews in the movie. Also, there's a scene where a woman wearing blue chiffon climbs up the rock to Moses and hugs the guy to Moses right and says, "Joshua" as she drapes herself over him with a hug. And then there's the part where Moses throws the commandments at the gold sacrificial bull statue. The statue blows up and the ground opens up and swallows a bunch of people. It's also funny how in the beginning of the clip everyone cowers away from Moses after what he says. Those people of Israel were a pretty messt up of bunch when it comes to morality.
dfnj
Well-Known Member
Exactly it. And unlike most people, I don't have a "everyone but me" blindspot. I know fully that there are times that I am misinformed or biased. I just don't care.
You're right, I can't see it that way. Partly because I lived on the US/Mexico border for a time, and originally did buy the human rights angle. Until I realized that these "suffering" immigrants often did little to give back to the community that hosted them, while the old or poor became progressively poorer. There was a video I was watching of elderly Italians that had to dig through trash while immigrants were complaining about no wifi, while they basically were taking the pensions of other people as food and services.
Human rights? Don't make me laugh!
I understand most problems from two sides. But ultimately, the case of "human rights" falls short. Immigrants are already given rights as guests. And in their homelands, they are perfectly capable of improving their situation. They instead bring their problems with them. Playing the "poor suffering me" violin. I'm unemployed, I live with my folks, and when they die maybe I'll get inheritance. Maybe not. I work to become self-employed. I don't collect welfare, unemployment, or foodstamps. I spend money out of pocket in advertising and have less than $2k to my name. I will keep working until I either run out of money or actually get some success. I understand that the reality of the world is that you can change your situation. I don't ask for help even when I probably need it. So yeah, I have zero sympathy for "human rights" when as an American simply trying to become independent in many cases I would get hit with people telling me I need to pay for this or that license (I'm thankfully exempt from some of this). People not even appreciating help when they probably could do much worse.
These countries are bad, because they are poorly run. They are poorly run, because either the citizens themselves are trash, or because there is an oppressive regime in power. But Aung San Suu Kyi (see the movie The Lady in 2011) stayed in her country even under oppression of a violent regime. I am staying in my home despite zero income. I'm gonna work hard using whatever resources I have. So no, I do not buy that angle. It's an excuse. You can be dirt poor and still manage to make a difference somehow. Or you can whine and complain about being oppressed while your free food is taking money from other people.
=================================
Back on topic. Graven images came from the usage of teraphim.
Teraphim - Wikipedia
If one understands this, suddenly the law has more context.
They censored my post saying I was bullying you or trolling you. LOL! What a stretch!
The video I referenced was apparently teraphim.
The Bible is not an image.
No, it doesn't say that. That's a convenient rationalization. The first passage is clear, it stands on its own.
Exactly the impression the Christian theologians want to convey, despite it's being in contradiction to scripture. The Bible clearly states "any thing that is in heaven above" or "in Earth beneath or in the waters under the Earth ."
Any depiction of any natural thing is a sin in both christianity and Islam.
For many years the Muslims upheld this prohibition. their mosques were decorated with calligraphy and abstract patterns. Nowadays, though, even the Muslims are creating images. It's shirk.
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Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Nice to know I'm not the only one who gets those. Considering that I kinda didn't want to be talking about that for as long as I ended up (and sorry, not sorry, I do have a right to my opinion), it was sorta trolling.
They may have decided that you were somehow undermining what I said by following up on teraphim. I dunno. What was the context of the PM? Ir usually tells you cuz they give a quote of the stuff they don't like.
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
Correction: I meant to say: it only becomes a problem when you FAIL to carry out the second part of the commandment:
I read that in the context of worshiping it. It would include the (golden) calf, whose meaning appears to be unclear ─ Yahweh? Apis? other? ─ and seems to point to other gods represented as animals. The Egyptians occupied the eastern Mediterranean into Canaan in the 13th to 11th centuries BCE, which may be the relevant time, and worshiped gods who were represented by the calf, the eagle, the hippo, the baboon, the snake, and I dare say others, so perhaps that had something to do with it.
Even leaving aside the 'image of God' question, it would be up to Christianity to say what was a sin in Christianity, wouldn't it?
When I was in Kuala Lumpur a few years ago I visited their museum of Islamic Arts. They had many Qur'ans, beautiful examples of calligraphy but of course no images. When I stood next to the Book of Kells (displayed in Trinity College, Dublin) and stared at the gorgeous illuminations, I was, like so many people, blown away. So you may guess that I'd never begrudge Muslims such glorious treasures.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
This, basically. You can carve any object you want. Otherwise there would be no craftsmen. You just can't be all creepy about it.
Anything can become an idol, when focus is taken away from God and to the object. The Jewish Temple became an idol, and was destroyed. The Bible and the Quran can certainly become idols when they prioritize their own beauty more than their truth.
Such treasures are dross.
Anything can become an idol, when focus is taken away from God and to the object. The Jewish Temple became an idol, and was destroyed. The Bible and the Quran can certainly become idols when they prioritize their own beauty more than their truth.
Such treasures are dross.
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OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
Thank you, I chose this avatar among many pics of Moses; which pretty much describes part of my religion.
Yes, I get a thrill watching the "The Ten Commandments" every Passover on ABC TV. Although, Hollywood tends to exaggerate their fill-ins of the historical account, I still enjoy the movie as a whole for me and my family. True, the nation of Israel was messed up pretty bad in morality; hence, the forty years of wandering in the desert to purge the dross in their crucible of fire.
OneThatGotAway
Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
The context proves otherwise...
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I [YAHWEH] thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;" ---- Exodus 20:4-5 KJV
And not only this context in this chapter, but the context of the entire book of Exodus must be taken into account. For example, consider this passage...
"And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof." ---- Exodus 25:19
These cherubs are not considered graven images; because Israel did neither worship nor bow down to them.