Is Jesus God

[finalfrogo]

You HAD to imput the word "Christ" for it to prove your point...

What are you talking about? Words are inputted in brackets to provide clarity when the complete contextual content is absent. He had to insert "[Jesus]" because he was specifying the pronoun "he," which is defined previously in the section. Read the entire section if you still don't understand.

 

[Ali Ansari]

Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity.
In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) "My Father is greater than I." [The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all." [The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…." [The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…." [The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30]

The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." [The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]

 

[sojourner]

I think that Christianity has been failing to come up with an adequate metaphor to describe the Trinity for quite a long time.

Do you mean that you are father and son at the same time and you talk to yourself? If not, then your metaphor fails because human beings, while "equal" from a certain point of view, are not equal in a similar or parallel sense that God is Father - Son - Spirit - God all at the same time - three persons - One God.

It is an exceptionally difficult concept.

My metaphor was comparing Father, Son and Spirit as different people, but one in that they are all of the same family. My father and I are two different people, yet we are one in the family, acting as the family, propagating the name and paradigm of the family. As a metaphor, it fails somewhat, because we humans are not able to completely define God.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity.
In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) "My Father is greater than I." [The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all." [The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…." [The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…." [The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30]

The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." [The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]

None of these passages definitively deny Jesus' divinity, either...:sad:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

As a metaphor, it fails somewhat, because we humans are not able to completely define God.

I was thinking more along the lines of utter failure. :yes:

It leads the mind to a family of equal gods and thus a polytheistic denial of the Oneness of God.

A good metaphor for the Trinity is difficult to construct. We really have no adequate metaphor that I know of.

 

[sojourner]

I was thinking more along the lines of utter failure. :yes:

It leads the mind to a family of equal gods and thus a polytheistic denial of the Oneness of God.

A good metaphor for the Trinity is difficult to construct. We really have no adequate metaphor that I know of.

Wish we had a smilie crahing and burning...I'd use it!!!:foot:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Wish we had a smilie crahing and burning...I'd use it!!!:foot:

No worries... It's a difficult concept.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You HAD to imput the word "Christ" for it to prove your point...

Wrong, I inserted it in order not to put the rest of the passage in for the interest of brevity. Stop being so pugnacious and prejudiced.

 

[sojourner]

No worries... It's a difficult concept.

AND I misspelled "crashing." Not my day, apparently. Must be yours!:run:

 

[Booko]

A good metaphor for the Trinity is difficult to construct. We really have no adequate metaphor that I know of.

I haven't seen one yet either. The only metaphor I know of that explains the paradoxical nature of some of the texts isn't appropriate in a forum on Biblical Debates.

Sojouner: In an earlier post you mentioned the "divinity" of Christ. I think I'm getting hung up on semantics here, because I do believe in the "divinity" of Christ, just not that He was God Himself. I've always had a tough time taking that last hop, even as a Christian.

Am I right in assuning you mean "divinity" as in "is God"?

 

[lunamoth]

I was thinking more along the lines of utter failure. :yes:

It leads the mind to a family of equal gods and thus a polytheistic denial of the Oneness of God.

A good metaphor for the Trinity is difficult to construct. We really have no adequate metaphor that I know of.

I think that's why we say it is Mystery. Perhaps like a koan, we need to abandon our intellect to approach it...

But, having said that, what do you think about this one...it loses its personal aspect, but helps me with the threeness in one.

The Persons of the Trinity are like the corners of a triangle, and the triangle itself is the face of a pyramid. God (the pyramid) is one but He has shown Himself to us in three Persons. Like the corners of the triangle They are distinct from one another, but also like the corners of a triangle, they could not exist without the others. They are connected (relationship) by the lines that form the sides of the triangle, but they are not the lines. In fact, the very idea of the corner of a triangle itself escapes reason when you meditate on it for very long.

2c,
lunamoth

 

[ProfLogic]

video.google. com/videosearch?q=deedat+is+jesus+god

i put some space between "google" and ".com" because i am not allowed to post links
please put the together to get the link


i would just recommend that christians who believe Jesus is God should watch those videos.

The fact that Jesus is not God is pretty common sense. You believe that God came out of a waman's private parts covered in filthy blood and other disgusting fluids. The fact that you take God to be so low is quite disgusting in my opinion.

Imagine what must be going through Mary's mind when she was giving birth to Jesus. Did she think she was giving birth to her God?
Did she think she was wiping her God's backside everytime Jesus went to the toilet as a baby? (the God she was supposed to worship)

On the 8th day after Jesus was born did the priest who was circumcising him think that he was cutting his God's penis?

In many parts of the bible Jesus is always asking for God's help? For the Father's help. Now Jesus being God wouldn't need to be asking someone else for help. Jesus was talking to God. You either say there is more than 1 God or you accept jesus is just a man of God

Respectively I do not know why there is a debate on Jesus. He never existed in the first place. Even the actual celebration of Dec 25 was from the pagan religion in their honor of the birth of Tammuz. The most of the old testament bible was taken form the Babylonian epic "Enuma Elish ". If you want to know the truth about the manipulation and lies of what people refer to religion, then read the birth of Tammuz - a mirror of the fable of the life of this Jesus character and be the judge for your self. If you look at history, if someone wanted to create their own following the easiest way is to write something that can never be proven wrong or right, hence the bible. All I ask is for a person to read objectively and maybe you will know the truth. I do not want to bash on religion but it is really a business. Hope someone can debate me on the bible, I am here to learn. Thanks.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Respectively I do not know why there is a debate on Jesus. He never existed in the first place. Even the actual celebration of Dec 25 was from the pagan religion in their honor of the birth of Tammuz. The most of the old testament bible was taken form the Babylonian epic "Enuma Elish ". If you want to know the truth about the manipulation and lies of what people refer to religion, then read the birth of Tammuz - a mirror of the fable of the life of this Jesus character and be the judge for your self. If you look at history, if someone wanted to create their own following the easiest way is to write something that can never be proven wrong or right, hence the bible. All I ask is for a person to read objectively and maybe you will know the truth. I do not want to bash on religion but it is really a business. Hope someone can debate me on the bible, I am here to learn. Thanks.

First, the influence of Enuma Elish on the Genesis stories is not evidence that Jesus never existed. The coincidence of celebrating the birth of Christ at a later time during other religious holidays is also not evidence that Jesus never existed.

Religion as a business is not evidence against it either.

EDIT: See if you can add to this thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27156&highlight=historical+Jesus

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

Respectively I do not know why there is a debate on Jesus. He never existed in the first place. Even the actual celebration of Dec 25 was from the pagan religion in their honor of the birth of Tammuz. The most of the old testament bible was taken form the Babylonian epic "Enuma Elish ". If you want to know the truth about the manipulation and lies of what people refer to religion, then read the birth of Tammuz - a mirror of the fable of the life of this Jesus character and be the judge for your self. If you look at history, if someone wanted to create their own following the easiest way is to write something that can never be proven wrong or right, hence the bible. All I ask is for a person to read objectively and maybe you will know the truth. I do not want to bash on religion but it is really a business. Hope someone can debate me on the bible, I am here to learn. Thanks.

reported, and by the way. jesus was more real than anything, seeing as how he technically created everything. Also, how do you know those religions, etc. werent what god got his ideas for jesus from?

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

god doesnt have to have everything planned from the beggining you know

 

[ProfLogic]

god doesnt have to have everything planned from the beggining you know

If this is the case, why follow him. How about his promises if we fight this evil they say 'satan'? I always say well god and satan why don't you fight and then the winner would get the prize. I am not being sarcastic but I just love arguing about religious stuff. Thanks.

 

[ProfLogic]

reported, and by the way. jesus was more real than anything, seeing as how he technically created everything. Also, how do you know those religions, etc. werent what god got his ideas for jesus from?

Believe me I know where they got the ideas from, sorry i can't share it with you at the moment.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

*waves hands* Hey, all! Please remember to stay on topic. If one wishes to discuss the validity of religion, please create another thread to do so in.

 

[sojourner]

Respectively I do not know why there is a debate on Jesus. He never existed in the first place. Even the actual celebration of Dec 25 was from the pagan religion in their honor of the birth of Tammuz. The most of the old testament bible was taken form the Babylonian epic "Enuma Elish ". If you want to know the truth about the manipulation and lies of what people refer to religion, then read the birth of Tammuz - a mirror of the fable of the life of this Jesus character and be the judge for your self. If you look at history, if someone wanted to create their own following the easiest way is to write something that can never be proven wrong or right, hence the bible. All I ask is for a person to read objectively and maybe you will know the truth. I do not want to bash on religion but it is really a business. Hope someone can debate me on the bible, I am here to learn. Thanks.

If you're debating the existence of Jesus, are you also debating the existence of the other two members of the Trinity? Or are you saying that Jesus does not exist because Jesus is not divine?

 

[ProfLogic]

video.google. com/videosearch?q=deedat+is+jesus+god

i put some space between "google" and ".com" because i am not allowed to post links
please put the together to get the link


i would just recommend that christians who believe Jesus is God should watch those videos.

The fact that Jesus is not God is pretty common sense. You believe that God came out of a waman's private parts covered in filthy blood and other disgusting fluids. The fact that you take God to be so low is quite disgusting in my opinion.

Imagine what must be going through Mary's mind when she was giving birth to Jesus. Did she think she was giving birth to her God?
Did she think she was wiping her God's backside everytime Jesus went to the toilet as a baby? (the God she was supposed to worship)

On the 8th day after Jesus was born did the priest who was circumcising him think that he was cutting his God's penis?

In many parts of the bible Jesus is always asking for God's help? For the Father's help. Now Jesus being God wouldn't need to be asking someone else for help. Jesus was talking to God. You either say there is more than 1 God or you accept jesus is just a man of God

My belief is that if there was ever a jesus, then he was a man that was possessed by a suggestive energy. Nowadays, plenty of people claiming to be jesus in our society (cults), why would it be different then that this man might have another awareness that suggested he is the son of a god. In honesty, I don't believe jesus ever existed, but if he did he is a man whose sacrifices brought more disorder in this world.