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Is Jesus God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by mehrosh, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I provided you with a picture...in my avatar...

    God provided us with a picture of who he is...via His Word.
     
  2. mehrosh

    mehrosh Member

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    He didn't, Right, but I just gave an example in another post is said that If I can fly, walk on water, read your mind, tell you whatever is in your mind and pocket. And say I am God, will you believe? You will say, Friend, you are here from 24 years, you have a father and a grandfather. If I have a knife I can stab you, you feel hungry and thirsty. I don't know how you are doing all this but you are not God. Thus Jesus had many qualities which are unusual but that doesn't make him God, just by saying that he had these qualities he is God. And when he didn't claim divinity It is purely senseless brother to call him God
     
  3. mehrosh

    mehrosh Member

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    If you say that I will guess by your picture that you are a girl, I even know frns who keep pictures of their gal frn as avatars....Sis...don't take me negatively...we are not talking about simply things like you and me,....we are talking about God....God created us....and we have to worship Him and obey Him.....If he doesn't tell us Worship me Or that I am your God....how will we identify our true Lord, Our God.
     
  4. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    I assure you I ask this in all sincerity:

    Are you on drugs?
     
  5. mehrosh

    mehrosh Member

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    And when God saith: O Jesus, SON OF MARY! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside God? he saith: Be glorified It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden. [Chapter:5, Verse:116]
     
  6. mehrosh

    mehrosh Member

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    Brother If you are asking me....Let me inform you that please don't blame me of drugs if you can't get a claim from Jesus of being God...
     
  7. waacman

    waacman Restoration of everything

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    The Jews in John 8 knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. Right after he says "I am" they picked up stones. Given the context of this whole situation I don't think they were going to build an alter! (or maybe they were, it would just have Jesus under it)
     
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  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Jesus said, "Those who have seen me have seen the Father..."

    We're not saying that Jesus is the Father -- they are two completely different persons of the Trinity. But, the Son is like the Father -- a perfect feflector. Ideally, then, when one looks at the progeny, one should see the progenitor. son't people tell you that you look like your father, or your mother?
     
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  9. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    See we're adapting to a similar thought here.

    The Manifestation of God is the perfect reflection of the Glory of God. We see in the Mirror what we cannot see by looking into the Source of that effulgence.

    The only difference taht really remains is that you don't acknowledge the other manifestations, otherwise we'd be in perfect unison.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    It's not that I don't acknowledge them...I just don't acknowledge them as divine.
     
  11. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    I am familiar with the "I am" argument. It does not hold water. I am sure there were many times Jesus said "I am going to the bathroom". Was that a claim to Godhood?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  12. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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  13. waacman

    waacman Restoration of everything

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    If this is not a claim to being God, then what is he saying? Why were the Jews so angry? (they weren't initially angry with him, but as he began to talk to them more it seemed that their anger increased and finally boiled over when he said this) I think the reaction of the Jews tells it all in this situation.
     
  14. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Tell you what . . . Quote the relevant verses in context. From the beginning of the incident to the end . . . then we can talk about it.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  15. waacman

    waacman Restoration of everything

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    1But Jesus went to (A)the Mount of Olives.
    2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and (B)He sat down and began to teach them.
    3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
    4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
    5"Now in the Law (C)Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
    6They were saying this, (D)testing Him, (E)so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
    7But when they persisted in asking Him, (F)He straightened up, and said to them, "(G)He who is without sin among you, let him be the (H)first to throw a stone at her."
    8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
    9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
    10(I)Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "(J)I do not condemn you, either Go From now on (K)sin no more."]
    12Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "(L)I am the Light of the world; (M)he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."
    13So the Pharisees said to Him, "(N)You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."
    14Jesus answered and said to them, "(O)Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know (P)where I came from and where I am going; but (Q)you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
    15"(R)You judge according to the flesh; (S)I am not judging anyone.
    16"But even (T)if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.
    17"Even in (U)your law it has been written that the testimony of (V)two men is true.
    18"I am He who testifies about Myself, and (W)the Father who sent Me testifies about Me."
    19So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; (X)if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."
    20These words He spoke in (Y)the treasury, as (Z)He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because (AA)His hour had not yet come.
    21Then He said again to them, "I go away, and (AB)you will seek Me, and (AC)will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
    22So (AD)the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, '(AE)Where I am going, you cannot come'?"
    23And He was saying to them, "(AF)You are from below, I am from above; (AG)you are of this world, (AH)I am not of this world.
    24"Therefore I said to you that you (AI)will die in your sins; for unless you believe that (AJ)I am He, (AK)you will die in your sins."
    25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?
    26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but (AL)He who sent Me is true; and (AM)the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
    27They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
    28So Jesus said, "When you (AN)lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that (AO)I am He, and (AP)I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
     
  16. waacman

    waacman Restoration of everything

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    29"And He who sent Me is with Me; (AQ)He has not left Me alone, for (AR)I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." 30As He spoke these things, (AS)many came to believe in Him.
    31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "(AT)If you continue in My word, then you are truly (AU)disciples of Mine;
    32and (AV)you will know the truth, and (AW)the truth will make you free."
    33They answered Him, "(AX)We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
    34Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, (AY)everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
    35"(AZ)The slave does not remain in the house forever; (BA)the son does remain forever.
    36"So if the Son (BB)makes you free, you will be free indeed.
    37"I know that you are (BC)Abraham's descendants; yet (BD)you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
    38"I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from (BE)your father."
    39They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is (BF)our father " Jesus said to them, "(BG)If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.
    40"But as it is, (BH)you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has (BI)told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
    41"You are doing the deeds of (BJ)your father " They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; (BK)we have one Father: God."
    42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, (BL)you would love Me, (BM)for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have (BN)not even come on My own initiative, but (BO)He sent Me.
    43"Why do you not understand (BP)what I am saying? It is because you cannot (BQ)hear My word.
    44"(BR)You are of (BS)your father the devil, and (BT)you want to do the desires of your father (BU)He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because (BV)there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he (BW)speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
    45"But because (BX)I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
    46"Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If (BY)I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
    47"(BZ)He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
    48(CA)The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a (CB)Samaritan and (CC)have a demon?"
    49Jesus answered, "I do not (CD)have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
    50"But (CE)I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
    51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone (CF)keeps My word he will never (CG)see death."
    52(CH)The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You (CI)have a demon Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone (CJ)keeps My word, he will never (CK)taste of death.'
    53"Surely You (CL)are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
    54Jesus answered, "(CM)If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; (CN)it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
    55and (CO)you have not come to know Him, (CP)but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be (CQ)a liar like you, (CR)but I do know Him and (CS)keep His word.
    56"(CT)Your father Abraham (CU)rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
    57(CV)So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
    58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, (CW)I am."
    59Therefore they (CX)picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus (CY)hid Himself and went out of the temple.
     
  17. waacman

    waacman Restoration of everything

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    Popeyesays, perhaps you will find most of these passages irrelevant, but I find them IMO as crucial to answer the specific question as to who Christ was adressing when he said this and what kind of people they were and their reaction to his claim of diety.

    So,

    The Setting?

    The Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (John 8:2)

    Who was there?

    Jesus and a bunch of Jews who apparently knew their stuff

    What happened?

    -Some scribes and Pharisees brought an adulterous women before Jesus, asking what should happen to her since the Law says that they should stone her, since she was caught in the act (John 8:3-5)

    - Jesus shoots em down with the "he who has no sin cast the first stone" lot (John 8:7)

    - A conversation ensues in which Jesus sets them straight as to who He really is (John 8:25-58)

    - The Jews, understanding Jesus's claim, and then rejecting it, pick up stones to try and kill Him b/c saying that you are God is blasphemous (John 8:59)

    - Jesus escapes them by hiding himself and going out of the temple (John 8:59)
     
  18. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    8:1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
    8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
    8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
    8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
    8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
    8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
    8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
    8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
    8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
    8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
    8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
    8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
    8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
    8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
    8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
    8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
    8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
    8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
    8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
    8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
    8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
    8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
    8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
    8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
    8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
    8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
    8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
    8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
    8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
    8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
    8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
    8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
    8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
    8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
    8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
    (King James Bible, John)

    Jesus WAS the Word Made Flesh. The Word was in existence before the life of Abraham or Jesus. In my opinion the Word has been Made Flesh at least a dozen times - Abraham was one, Jesus was another

    Jesus, however, does not make the claim that the Son is God in this chapter of the Gospel of John. The priests were already laying for Him and plotting His fall, this was just a preparatory chapter to the trial and curcifixtion.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  19. waacman

    waacman Restoration of everything

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    I'm confused here, doesn't "Word" in the greek translate into "Theos" meaning "God"?
    Then what your saying is that Jesus was God and Abraham was God and all the other manifestations that you believe in, were God, or God in the flesh? Or do we possibly have a disagreement as to what "Word" means in John 1:1?

    Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God (or "Son" to put it in your terms)?
    Maybe this is where my confusion/our misunderstanding lies?

    I'll agree with you on the point of the leaders/priests plotting his fall, it's quite obvious in John 8:6, but I still refer to the reaction they had to His claim, from their(the leaders/priests) point of view, this was the perfect excuse to kill Him, right then and there without facing the repercussions of other people who supported Jesus, so they picked up some stones to chuck at Him.

    I also don't understand what you mean by a "just a preparatory chapter" as if this specific chapter holds less value or merit, compared to other chapters in John. At least thats what is sounds like to me. Please clarify.
     
  20. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    "I'm confused here, doesn't "Word" in the greek translate into "Theos" meaning "God"?
    Then what your saying is that Jesus was God and Abraham was God and all the other manifestations that you believe in, were God, or God in the flesh? Or do we possibly have a disagreement as to what "Word" means in John 1:1?"

    No, it translates as "Logos".

    Regards,
    Scott
     
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