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Is Jesus God?

John1.12

Free gift
1. Christians do not have to believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead, not according to Jesus.
2. There is nothing to be saved from since there was no original sin
3. The only thing that matters is that we have eternal life. We get that by (a) believing in Jesus and (b) being righteous,

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
What do you make of verse 18 ?
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18¶He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Any rational person knows that God created the universe. The universe existed before Jesus. Jesus was a man. Men do not create a universe. Rational deductive reasoning says Jesus is not God. So do all these verses:

#1800 Trailblazer

#1801 Trailblazer

Obviously you cannot refute the verses that show Jesus is not God. Neither could samtonga43.
I don't think we can ever find a common ground to discuss. As beliefs go ,that are remotely associated with Christianity ,there is a scale of close to far away . Where your beliefs are i,s as far away as the earth to the moon .
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
My RSV substantially agrees: "6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

This is about Paul's Jesus, who like the Jesus of the author of John but unlike the synoptic Jesuses, is a gnostic-influenced figure who pre-existed in heaven with God and in the role of the gnostic demiurge ('craftsman') created the material universe. Here John's Jesus is in 'the form of a god' only in the sense that he so pre-existed and by inference was created by God. But Paul is completely clear that Jesus is not God ─

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

I suspect I'm telling you what you already know ─ if so, apologies.

Q: And yet what was his reply when asked to show them the Father?

A: Have I been so long with you and you still don't know me? If you have seen me you have seen the Father. John 14:7-9

And he said - I and my Father are one. And they knew what he meant and wanted to stone him because he was claiming to be God. John 10:30-33

He was the image of the invisible God - in other words he was the body the invisible God took on to shed blood for our sins. Colossians 1:15

It's not two different individuals involved here. The Father is the eternal Spirit (God) and the Son is the body the Father made himself to dwell in and sacrifice for sins. God had to make himself a body that was able to shed blood and die. His eternal Spirit didn't have blood and could never die.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Alright. I will change it to critiquing JW's. Fine.
Sure. Scholars rightly do not consider their translations to be valid. So that would mean their translation of Jn. 1, is not a viable objection to what otherwise credible scholars say about that passage, which is what I shared based upon my research of it. I believe it's pretty clear, that the author of John had a vision of Jesus as Divine, meaning the same substance as God. Not "a god", or some created being or such. But rather, God itself known, or manifesting, which is Logos, which became Jesus.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sure. Scholars rightly do not consider their translations to be valid.

But I didnt address their translation.

So I am telling you that addressing or debunking the JW's and their translation is not relevant to the text of the Gospel of John as we find in a manuscript. Hope you understand.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But I didnt address their translation.

So I am telling you that addressing or debunking the JW's and their translation is not relevant to the text of the Gospel of John as we find in a manuscript. Hope you understand.
I don't understand. I never even thought of the JWs at all in our discussion until you said that I hate JWs, for some unknown reason. Why did you bring them up? To me, they were irrelevant from the outset. What did they have to do with what I was saying, which you appeared to dismiss as "my theology"? Why did you inject them into the discussion? What was your point?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I don't understand. I never even thought of the JWs at all in our discussion until you said that I hate JWs, for some unknown reason. Why did you bring them up? To me, they were irrelevant from the outset. What did they have to do with what I was saying, which you appeared to dismiss as "my theology"? Why did you insert them into the discussion? What was your point?

No, I do not understand. It is not "my theology". I am stating what the work of many Greek and NT scholars say about this passage. The ones that say it doesn't say this, are typically JW's, and no credible scholar agrees with them in their ideas about this passage, translating it as "a god".
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
[quoting me]
Oh, yes. I did mention them first, because you seemed to suggest that my reading of that passage was not supported by scholars, and called it 'my theology'. I mentioned them because they are the only ones of note who claim that passage does not mean what I was citing scholars as it was saying. There are of course the modelists, who are not Trinitarians, but as far as I know, they don't claim to have any actual scholars, like the JWs do.

Were you not referencing them, and meant someone else?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Look at how much junk you just placed onto one verse . Its clear its referring to Jesus . The whole chapter is. Good grief man . You have been brain washed with this cult you are following . Wake up man .

You will notice that they only tend to torturously rework the words of Jesus that allude to his divinity. His other words seem straight forward to them. People who are not a part of the sect can see what they are doing but inside the circle of confirmation bias is a whole different world.
And so goes Baha'i interpretations of most everything in Christianity and most everything of every other religion too. Baha'is say they believe in all the other religions, and they say they believe in Jesus, but it's their own version of who Jesus is.

I believe that the Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. I believe that is the meaning of the verse which says: “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works really well for Jesus, but was Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses "perfectly" polished mirrors? You're the "rational" one, the "logical" one, how do all these other Biblical characters fit the Baha'i definition of a manifestation of God? They don't. But I have read alternative stories about some of them, like Abraham and Noah. Where do those stories come from? With Noah there was no mention of a flood. And with Abraham Baha'u'llah says that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. How can Christians discuss anything about their Biblical beliefs when the Baha'is, not only have their own interpretations of the Biblical stories, but they also have their own versions of some of the stories. Oh, which might include the story of the boy Jesus turning clay birds into real birds.

I believe that every particle of matter and energy (and all else) is a part of God. I'm a Deist. Can you acknowledge my belief?
And that's a good question... Is God, a spirit, and therefore everywhere? But does the space taken up by some physical thing in the physical world not contain God?

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Yes, that's what evangelical Christians believe. but...

1. Christians do not have to believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead, not according to Jesus.
2. There is nothing to be saved from since there was no original sin
Liberal Christians don't need a physically resurrected Jesus and neither do Baha'is. Baha'is have said that the body of Jesus died and, no doubt, has rotted away.

I don't think we can ever find a common ground to discuss. As beliefs go ,that are remotely associated with Christianity ,there is a scale of close to far away . Where your beliefs are as far away as the earth to the moon .
Exactly, they don't want much of anything you believe about Jesus and the Bible to be true. Yet, they say, and will continue to say, that they believe in Jesus and they believe in the Bible... but it's their "Jesus" and their "Bible".

And in that "Bible" Jesus is not God, and there is no need for a sacrifice for sins. There is no need for Jesus to come back and destroy Satan, because there is no Satan. In fact, there is no need for Jesus to come back.. Muhammad, The Bab and now Baha'u'llah have already come, and gone, and they were the "return" of the "Christ" in spirit. So you are so right, they are a million miles away from your beliefs. And both sides think the other is wrong. And then there are some people that think both of you are wrong.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
And so goes Baha'i interpretations of most everything in Christianity and most everything of every other religion too. Baha'is say they believe in all the other religions, and they say they believe in Jesus, but it's their own version of who Jesus is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works really well for Jesus, but was Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses "perfectly" polished mirrors? You're the "rational" one, the "logical" one, how do all these other Biblical characters fit the Baha'i definition of a manifestation of God? They don't. But I have read alternative stories about some of them, like Abraham and Noah. Where do those stories come from? With Noah there was no mention of a flood. And with Abraham Baha'u'llah says that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. How can Christians discuss anything about their Biblical beliefs when the Baha'is, not only have their own interpretations of the Biblical stories, but they also have their own versions of some of the stories. Oh, which might include the story of the boy Jesus turning clay birds into real birds.

And that's a good question... Is God, a spirit, and therefore everywhere? But does the space taken up by some physical thing in the physical world not contain God?

Yes, that's what evangelical Christians believe. but...

Liberal Christians don't need a physically resurrected Jesus and neither do Baha'is. Baha'is have said that the body of Jesus died and, no doubt, has rotted away.

Exactly, they don't want much of anything you believe about Jesus and the Bible to be true. Yet, they say, and will continue to say, that they believe in Jesus and they believe in the Bible... but it's their "Jesus" and their "Bible".

And in that "Bible" Jesus is not God, and there is no need for a sacrifice for sins. There is no need for Jesus to come back and destroy Satan, because there is no Satan. In fact, there is no need for Jesus to come back.. Muhammad, The Bab and now Baha'u'llah have already come, and gone, and they were the "return" of the "Christ" in spirit. So you are so right, they are a million miles away from your beliefs. And both sides think the other is wrong. And then there are some people that think both of you are wrong.

Baha'u'llah is French for "cake and eat it too"
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Oh, yes. I did mention them first, because you seemed to suggest that my reading of that passage was not supported by scholars, and called it 'my theology'. I mentioned them because they are the only ones of note who claim that passage does not mean what I was citing scholars as it was saying.

I gave you a translation. please read it. If you think they were not scholars, please explain why.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
And so goes Baha'i interpretations of most everything in Christianity and most everything of every other religion too. Baha'is say they believe in all the other religions, and they say they believe in Jesus, but it's their own version of who Jesus is.
It's not our version, it's Baha'u'llah's version, whom we believe reveals God's word Himself. There are signs that Baha'u'llah is who He says He is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that works really well for Jesus, but was Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses "perfectly" polished mirrors?
Like I said above, we believe this based on what we believe is revelation, not really reason. How do you know that those stories in the Bible are correct, written after thousands of years have passed? Wouldn't God, if He did indeed reveal what the situation was to Baha'u'llah, know better?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I gave you a translation. please read it. If you think they were not scholars, please explain why.
You said to read the American translation in post #74. I'm not sure which one you mean, so let's take the ASV first:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

Looks the same.

New American Bible is the same too. The NASB, which is considered very word for word literal translation, also translates it the same.

The only version I am aware of is the New World Translation, the green bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses which translate the third clause of Jn. 1:1 erroneously as "the word was a god". Is that the one you were trying to refer me to? Please clarify.
 

tigger2

Active Member
You said to read the American translation in post #74. I'm not sure which one you mean, so let's take the ASV first:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

Looks the same.

New American Bible is the same too. The NASB, which is considered very word for word literal translation, also translates it the same.

The only version I am aware of is the New World Translation, the green bible of the Jehovah's Witnesses which translate the third clause of Jn. 1:1 erroneously as "the word was a god". Is that the one you were trying to refer me to? Please clarify.

................................................
Even the trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that the literal translation of John 1:1c is: “a god was the Word”. - p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.

Equally trinitarian Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:

“A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

The reason Prof. Dodd rejected “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upset his trinitarian interpretations of John’s Gospel!

Rev. J. W. Wenham wrote in his The Elements of New Testament Greek: “Therefore as far as grammar alone is concerned, such a sentence could be printed: θεὸς ἐστιν ὁ λόγος, which would mean either, ‘The Word is a god, or, ‘The Word is the god [God]’.” - p. 35, Cambridge University Press, 1965.

"In John i.1 (θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), the article could not have been omitted if John had wished to designate the λόγος as θεὸς [God], because in such a connexion θεὸς without the article would be ambiguous." - A treatise on the grammar of New Testament Greek : regarded as a sure basis for New Testament exegesis, p. 151, G. B. Winer.

(Of course if you carefully examine this study, you will find that the grammar really shows that ‘The Word is [or “was” in John 1:1c] a god’ is what John intended.)

Noted trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

However, his acknowledgment of the use of “god” for men at John 10:34-36 and the use of “god/gods” for angels, judges, and other men in the Hebrew OT Scriptures contradicts his above excuse for not accepting the literal translation. - p. 202, Jesus as God.

And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:

“ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.

Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.

And highly respected trinitarian scholar, author, and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay wrote: “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.

You see, in ancient times many of God’s servants had no qualms about using the word “god” or “gods” for godly men, kings, judges, and even angels.

Yes, as trinitarian scholar Dr. Robert Young tells us in the preface to Young’s Analytical Concordance in the section entitled “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

“65. God—is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, Magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. Ex. 7:1; ... John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28 ....” - Eerdmans Publ., 1978.

And my personal studies of the NT Greek of John 1:1c prove that it should read in English: "a god." .

Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Q: And yet what was his reply when asked to show them the Father?

A: Have I been so long with you and you still don't know me? If you have seen me you have seen the Father. John 14:7-9

And he said - I and my Father are one. And they knew what he meant and wanted to stone him because he was claiming to be God. John 10:30-33
These last two are explained in

John 17:20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.​

So Jesus is one with the Father in a manner that anyone can be one with the Father.
He was the image of the invisible God - in other words he was the body the invisible God took on to shed blood for our sins. Colossians 1:15

It's not two different individuals involved here. The Father is the eternal Spirit (God) and the Son is the body the Father made himself to dwell in and sacrifice for sins. God had to make himself a body that was able to shed blood and die. His eternal Spirit didn't have blood and could never die.
Paul is quite clear that his Jesus is not God eg

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

Paul's Christology, like John's, is essentially gnostic: both their Jesuses pre-exist in heaven with God, both create the material universe (the role of the gnostic demiurge) regardless of Genesis, and both come to earth in an unstated, thus inferentially unremarkable, manner, presumably by entering in spirit into the zygote of an ordinary Jewish conception, since both are said to be descended from David. (Of these claims, the only one found in the synoptics is that the Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke are also said to be descended from David, incoherently since their father is literally God. Mark's is said not to be descended from David.)

None of the five versions of Jesus ever claims to be God and each of them expressly denies it. The real problem is that if Jesus was God, then his entire ministry was one long lie, a total deception.
 

tigger2

Active Member
................................................
Even the trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that the literal translation of John 1:1c is: “a god was the Word”. - p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.

Equally trinitarian Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:

“A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

The reason Prof. Dodd rejected “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upset his trinitarian interpretations of John’s Gospel!

Rev. J. W. Wenham wrote in his The Elements of New Testament Greek: “Therefore as far as grammar alone is concerned, such a sentence could be printed: θεὸς ἐστιν ὁ λόγος, which would mean either, ‘The Word is a god, or, ‘The Word is the god [God]’.” - p. 35, Cambridge University Press, 1965.

"In John i.1 (θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), the article could not have been omitted if John had wished to designate the λόγος as θεὸς [God], because in such a connexion θεὸς without the article would be ambiguous." - A treatise on the grammar of New Testament Greek : regarded as a sure basis for New Testament exegesis, p. 151, G. B. Winer.

(Of course if you carefully examine this study, you will find that the grammar really shows that ‘The Word is [or “was” in John 1:1c] a god’ is what John intended.)

Noted trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

However, his acknowledgment of the use of “god” for men at John 10:34-36 and the use of “god/gods” for angels, judges, and other men in the Hebrew OT Scriptures contradicts his above excuse for not accepting the literal translation. - p. 202, Jesus as God.

And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:

“ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.

Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.

And highly respected trinitarian scholar, author, and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay wrote: “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.

You see, in ancient times many of God’s servants had no qualms about using the word “god” or “gods” for godly men, kings, judges, and even angels.

Yes, as trinitarian scholar Dr. Robert Young tells us in the preface to Young’s Analytical Concordance in the section entitled “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

“65. God—is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, Magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. Ex. 7:1; ... John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28 ....” - Eerdmans Publ., 1978.

And my personal studies of the NT Greek of John 1:1c prove that it should read in English: "a god." .

Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
..............................................
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, faithful Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods (or a god) include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;

11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;

15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

(John 10:34-36);

18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

(also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; David Guzik - http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1080614802-6850.html#132 ; Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John - http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1080614376-7939.html )

And, of course, the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/“a god” about the same time the NT was written.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What do you make of verse 18 ?
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18¶He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It is important to not only look at the verses that preced that verse but also the verses that follow:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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So they were condemned already because they were evil and they hate the light because they are evil and the light will show that they are evil, if they come into it. That is why but he that does not believe in Jesus is condemned already, because he hates the light of God that came from Jesus. This is related to some other verses

Matthew 12:31-32 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”

In those verses Jesus said it is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit (light of God) and one will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife.

I can only surmise why that is an unforgivable sin. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven and hell are states of the soul, not geographical locations. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. It is impossible to come near to God if one is repelled by the light of God because God does not force His love upon anyone. God only draws those near to Him those who reach out for His mercy. If one hates God they will not reach out for God’s mercy and they will thus be distant from God; in such a state they will make their own hell. Maybe that correlates with the unforgivable sin.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God so He was like a lamp that brought the light of God (the Holy Spirit) to humanity because He perfectly reflected God’s attributes. It is forgivable to hate the lamp, because one might not recognize that the lamp is from God because they might not see the divine perfections of God in the lamp, but it is not forgivable to hate the light of God because that is akin to hating God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't think we can ever find a common ground to discuss. As beliefs go ,that are remotely associated with Christianity ,there is a scale of close to far away . Where your beliefs are i,s as far away as the earth to the moon .
They might be far away from Christian doctrines but they are very close to what Jesus actually taught.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
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Even the trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that the literal translation of John 1:1c is: “a god was the Word”. - p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.

Equally trinitarian Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:

“A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.” - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

The reason Prof. Dodd rejected “a god” as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upset his trinitarian interpretations of John’s Gospel!

Rev. J. W. Wenham wrote in his The Elements of New Testament Greek: “Therefore as far as grammar alone is concerned, such a sentence could be printed: θεὸς ἐστιν ὁ λόγος, which would mean either, ‘The Word is a god, or, ‘The Word is the god [God]’.” - p. 35, Cambridge University Press, 1965.

"In John i.1 (θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), the article could not have been omitted if John had wished to designate the λόγος as θεὸς [God], because in such a connexion θεὸς without the article would be ambiguous." - A treatise on the grammar of New Testament Greek : regarded as a sure basis for New Testament exegesis, p. 151, G. B. Winer.

(Of course if you carefully examine this study, you will find that the grammar really shows that ‘The Word is [or “was” in John 1:1c] a god’ is what John intended.)

Noted trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism” will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

However, his acknowledgment of the use of “god” for men at John 10:34-36 and the use of “god/gods” for angels, judges, and other men in the Hebrew OT Scriptures contradicts his above excuse for not accepting the literal translation. - p. 202, Jesus as God.

And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:

“ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.” - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.

Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word” - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.

And highly respected trinitarian scholar, author, and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay wrote: “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.” - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.

You see, in ancient times many of God’s servants had no qualms about using the word “god” or “gods” for godly men, kings, judges, and even angels.

Yes, as trinitarian scholar Dr. Robert Young tells us in the preface to Young’s Analytical Concordance in the section entitled “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

“65. God—is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, Magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. Ex. 7:1; ... John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28 ....” - Eerdmans Publ., 1978.

And my personal studies of the NT Greek of John 1:1c prove that it should read in English: "a god." .

Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity
Do you believe that the intended audience of John's gospel was to speak to both Jewish and Greek audiences, or just pagans?
 
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