Is Jesus God?

[Trailblazer]

But John 1 says otherwise. I will believe the bible, not your religion .

John 1 does not SAY anything, you INTERPRET to mean what you want it to mean.
You do not have to believe my religion to know that Jesus is not God. Just look at all the other Christians who have figured that out by reading the Bible. You can still be a Christian and not believe that Jesus is God.

 

[Trailblazer]

"It is obvious to any rational person that these verses refer to God."
Yes thats my point.

Any rational person knows that God created the universe. The universe existed before Jesus. Jesus was a man. Men do not create a universe. Rational deductive reasoning says Jesus is not God. So do all these verses:

#1800 Trailblazer

#1801 Trailblazer

Obviously you cannot refute the verses that show Jesus is not God. Neither could samtonga43.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that does not account for this passage:
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon4 his shoulder,
and his name shall be called5
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.

That passage refers to Baha'u'llah, not to Jesus. Everything in the Bible is not about Jesus.

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during the age in which we are now living. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy, but they will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha'u'llah is sitting on the throne of David, and what that means to us is that He brought the Most Great Law by which the Kingdom of God will be established with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

 

[Trailblazer]

People who are not a part of the sect can see what they are doing but inside the circle of confirmation bias is a whole different world.

The Baha'i Faith is a world religion that has no sects. Any educated person knows that.

The Baha'i Faith is a dynamic world religion with several million adherents from a variety of different religious and cultural backgrounds. The central figure of the religion is Baha'u'llah, and Baha'is consider him to be the latest in a series of divine messengers.Sep 23, 2019

An introduction to the Baha'i Faith - The British Library

 

[Windwalker]

Theos en ho logos. So saying Logos was divine is correct. But what I responded to was "Logos was God" which is inference.

We agree on the texts. That's good. But isn't saying the Logos is Divine, saying it is God?

I think the problem is when people see "God" they think an entity, a person, a diety, etc. But John's Logos, which draws clearly from Philo's use of it, is basically this. "God" is unknowable, and unmanifest, but the Logos manifests or makes the nature of the Divine seen and knowable. It's still God, but "God-manifesting", is really what the nature of Logos is. It is God, making itself known. That Agent of Creation, or Agent of manifestation, is not something outside of God, but is God manifesting itself.

That's why, in the context of John's prologue, that "God-manifesting" of the first few verses, continued that eternal role and activity in becoming flesh. The Logos manifesting as human. "In the beginning, the Logos already was, before the creation alluded to in Genesis 1 in the use of "in the beginning", and that the Genesis account was Logos itself. That very Creator, became a man and we all saw him, says the author, doing what Logos has always done, which is reveal the unknown, invisible, hidden God.

It's quite metaphysical in nature. Not just a prophet or a "messenger", but the Divine Manifesting itself, full of glory as begotten of God, God's Radiance.

 

[Colt]

The Baha'i Faith is a world religion that has no sects. Any educated person knows that.

The Baha'i Faith is a dynamic world religion with several million adherents from a variety of different religious and cultural backgrounds. The central figure of the religion is Baha'u'llah, and Baha'is consider him to be the latest in a series of divine messengers.Sep 23, 2019

An introduction to the Baha'i Faith - The British Library

Going to stick with the Son of God and his original Gospel.

 

[firedragon]

We agree on the texts. That's good. But isn't saying the Logos is Divine, saying it is God?

Well, textually it is not. That is why I said what you believe is an inference. Its your theology and is all your prerogative, but I was pointing out that the text does not say what was said by someone I can't even remember now.

Hope you understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's quite metaphysical in nature. Not just a prophet or a "messenger", but the Divine Manifesting itself, full of glory as begotten of God, God's Radiance.

That is what I believe Jesus was. He was a prophet and a messenger but he was more than that; He was a Manifestation of God. However, a Manifestation of God is not actually the fullness of God in the flesh, he is Gods attributes perfectly reflected and expressed (manifested) in the flesh. The ineffable essence of God cannot be contained in a single human body.

 

[Windwalker]

Well, textually it is not. That is why I said what you believe is an inference. Its your theology and is all your prerogative, but I was pointing out that the text does not say what was said by someone I can't even remember now.

Hope you understand.

No, I do not understand. It is not "my theology". I am stating what the work of many Greek and NT scholars say about this passage. The ones that say it doesn't say this, are typically JW's, and no credible scholar agrees with them in their ideas about this passage, translating it as "a god".

 

[Windwalker]

That is what I believe Jesus was. He was a prophet and a messenger but he was more than that; He was a Manifestation of God. However, a Manifestation of God is not actually the fullness of God in the flesh, he is Gods attributes perfectly reflected and expressed (manifested) in the flesh. The ineffable essence of God cannot be contained in a single human body.

But the fullness of God in the flesh, is what John is saying. So is Paul, using that word itself. Not reflection, but Radiance.

BTW, "the fullness of the godhead dwelt in him bodily" (Col. 2:9), does not mean that God was in Jesus, and nowhere else. It's not referring to volume. I serious doubt anyone of any depth of understanding could imagine that. Perhaps some newbie might.

It basically means as Jesus in John says, "He that sees me sees the Father". Add "I and my Father are One" to that. The Logos was God manifesting in that body called "Jesus". People think too literally, as if God is in some "place", or occupies space and time like us mortals do. The Divine became human, and dwelt among us, is what the authors are suggesting. Jn. 1:14 But that doesn't mean God left heaven and no one was home while he was down here. lol.

 

[Trailblazer]

It basically means as Jesus in John says, "He that sees me sees the Father". Add "I and my Father are One" to that. Jesus was God manifesting in that body called "Jesus". People think too literally, as if God is in some "place", or occupies space and time like us mortals do. The Divine became human, and dwelt among us, is what the authors are suggesting. Jn. 1:14

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe that the Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. I believe that is the meaning of the verse which says: “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

 

[John1.12]

John 1 does not SAY anything, you INTERPRET to mean what you want it to mean.
You do not have to believe my religion to know that Jesus is not God. Just look at all the other Christians who have figured that out by reading the Bible. You can still be a Christian and not believe that Jesus is God.

You cannot be a Christian unless you believe Jesus is God . Rom 10 ,9-15

 

[Trailblazer]

You cannot be a Christian unless you believe Jesus is God . Rom 10 ,9-15

Jesus is Lord does not mean Jesus is God.

What it means that Jesus is Lord?

What Does It Mean to Say That Jesus Christ is Lord? For Jesus to be Lord of your life means that He is the ruler, the boss, the master of your whole life. He cannot be Lord of a part — He must be given control of the entire life - the whole life. ... He wants to be Lord of our spiritual life and of our physical life.

The Lordship of Jesus Christ - Dr. Roger D. Willmore

Does Lord mean God or Jesus?

In a religious context, Lord is a title that is used for different gods and deities. Lord often refers to the almighty or the creator of the universe or the savior of mankind. Jesus is often referred to as Lord more often then he is called God.

Difference Between God and lord | Difference Between

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One can be a Christian and not believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

 

[firedragon]

No, I do not understand. It is not "my theology". I am stating what the work of many Greek and NT scholars say about this passage. The ones that say it doesn't say this, are typically JW's, and no credible scholar agrees with them in their ideas about this passage, translating it as "a god".

Not really. Hating JW's is not a good scholarly approach.

Read the American translation just to see that generalisations are uncalled for. Also, you yourself have made a translation that agrees with this, and disagrees with your so called "scholars". But your "inference" agrees".

I can say this many a time. What you are speaking about ultimately is an inference, not a translation, and you have done it and shown it very well in a previous post.

 

[Windwalker]

Not really. Hating JW's is not a good scholarly approach.

Hate? Saying they aren't considered credible, is hatred to you? Is hatred an emotion you feel when people don't agree with you? Why would you assume that of others then?

 

[firedragon]

Hate? Saying they aren't considered credible, is hatred to you? Is hatred an emotion you feel when people don't agree with you? Why would you assume that of others then?

Alright. I will change it to critiquing JW's. Fine.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe God is one and does not have parts. Jesus is not part of God; He is God in the flesh.

I can acknowledge your belief.
I believe that every particle of matter and energy (and all else) is a part of God. I'm a Deist. Can you acknowledge my belief?
Yes?
No?

 

[John1.12]

Jesus is Lord does not mean Jesus is God.

What it means that Jesus is Lord?

What Does It Mean to Say That Jesus Christ is Lord? For Jesus to be Lord of your life means that He is the ruler, the boss, the master of your whole life. He cannot be Lord of a part — He must be given control of the entire life - the whole life. ... He wants to be Lord of our spiritual life and of our physical life.

The Lordship of Jesus Christ - Dr. Roger D. Willmore

Does Lord mean God or Jesus?

In a religious context, Lord is a title that is used for different gods and deities. Lord often refers to the almighty or the creator of the universe or the savior of mankind. Jesus is often referred to as Lord more often then he is called God.

Difference Between God and lord | Difference Between

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
One can be a Christian and not believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

Thats not what the bible says .
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[rational experiences]

Why did human science impose a thesis human DNA and GOD?

Believing that God was within us as theists as scientists?

As I never sought that info myself just living.

What event occurs in an ovary when sperm penetrates it. First it begins to spiral O inside it's cell like G in the O to split DD to GOOD? Is this the sort of cell function you discussed as relative to cell life continuing?

Is that why you said God is within our human formation baby process as spirit movement. Hence Jesus O not that movement by name and is not God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thats not what the bible says .
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1. Christians do not have to believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead, not according to Jesus.
2. There is nothing to be saved from since there was no original sin
3. The only thing that matters is that we have eternal life. We get that by (a) believing in Jesus and (b) being righteous,

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.