Is Jesus God?

[firedragon]

Hi firedragon,

Kindly take note of this:
God exists in three persons. One God (Father) exists in the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
It is not 3 in one. We don’t believe in three Gods (Tritheism), that is idolatry.

Jesus prayed to the Father. If Jesus is the Father, why Jesus prayed to the Father? Isn’t it?

Yes, because it is written in the Bible, we believed it is inspired and the truth.

Oh. I think you should not tell me that God had many sons and make Adam as Son of God because as you have said that you are not equating Moses to Jesus, so you may do the same with Adam. Believers are also called as children of God but not to equate them as Son of God like Jesus.

A God-sent Messiah, and a man in nature who is begotten (as He is truly in human likeness).

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-Man.html

A deliverer chosen by God, an anointed one.

http://www.gotquestions.org/what-does-Messiah-mean.html

I follow Paul and Jesus because they are both say “Faith saves.”

Luke 7:50
50. And He (Jesus) said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 17:6
6. And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, `Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you.

He is the King and the Ruler. It will be when Jesus rule the earth as King of Kings and the Lord of Lords in the future.

Zech. 14:9
9. And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.

Jesus gives counsel. He reveals the mind of God. In the New Testament, you will see Jesus function as a Counselor. He counsels us and guides us.

Rom. 11:27-36
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
27. "And this is My covenant with them,
28. From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29. for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31. so these also now have been disobedient, in order that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32. For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.
33. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34. For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
35. Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
36. For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

1 Peter 1:10-11
10. As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry,
11. seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Peace Mate.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Jesus also states he sees his Father doing things, which is quite a statement considering that no man has seen the Father and live (Exodus 33:20)

I totally agree with this, no man has ever seen God. So I have a question for the people that don't believe Jesus is God.

If Jesus isn't God, and no one has ever seen God,

Exo 33:20 (ESVST) 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Jn 1:18 (ESVST) 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Jn 6:46 (ESVST) 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.


then who did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob see?

Exo 6:3 (ESVST) 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself known to them.

 

[Katzpur]

What are the Godly characteristics a human can develop into?

I don't believe we can fully develop any godly qualities while still mortals. But here's what C. S. Lewis had to say on the subject, and my belief pretty much mirrors his:

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

The underlined words would be a big part of what it would mean to be godly. When I think about godly qualities, I envision everything that we would think of as being "good," but infinitely so. Our knowledge, wisdom, love, power, etc. would all be perfect and without flaw.

 

[moorea944]

I totally agree with this, no man has ever seen God. So I have a question for the people that don't believe Jesus is God.

If Jesus isn't God, and no one has ever seen God,

Exo 33:20 (ESVST) 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."

Jn 1:18 (ESVST) 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Jn 6:46 (ESVST) 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.


then who did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob see?

Exo 6:3 (ESVST) 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself known to them.

I totally agree with this, no man has ever seen God. So I have a question for the people that don't believe Jesus is God.
If Jesus isn't God, and no one has ever seen God,
Exo 33:20 (ESVST) 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."
Jn 1:18 (ESVST) 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

The bible is right, no one has ever seen God. But.... we can see God in so many different ways. We can see His creation, His ways in us and other people. It really doesnt mean face to face....

Jn 6:46 (ESVST) 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

Jesus has seen his Father when he was on earth. Not face to face, but spiritualy and in purpose. And now that he is in heaven, he really has seen His father. We have to remember that Jesus is not God or his father or the creator. He is the son of God, not God the son. That is very important in understanding the bible and God's plan and purpose. Jesus was born a man, not born a God.

then who did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob see?
Exo 6:3 (ESVST) 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself known to them.

God appears to man through angels. Angels represent God on many occasions. Angels are the fingers of God. God will also talk to man through an angel too.
An angel can talk "as" God or just represent Him in many different ways.

 

[Katzpur]

The bible is right, no one has ever seen God. But.... we can see God in so many different ways. We can see His creation, His ways in us and other people. It really doesnt mean face to face....

And yet the Bible also says that...

"...Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Genesis 32:30) Are you saying that even though it specifically states that Jacob saw Him "face to face," that he really didn't?

Moses also claimed to have seen God. "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." (Exodus 33:11) Again, the actual words "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" seem to be pretty straightforward. I can't imagine how it could have been stated more clearly that certain individuals have, in face, seen God.

Jesus has seen his Father when he was on earth. Not face to face, but spiritually and in purpose. And now that he is in heaven, he really has seen His father.

So are you saying that God has some kind of physical form that could be seen by Jesus once He returned to Heaven?

 

[InChrist]

Yes, I do. Since I believe that God already exists as a being fully distinct from me, I don't believe I can become Him. I also don't believe I can ever become His equal. He will always be my God and there will never come a time when I do not worship Him as such.

I do believe that, over who knows how many billions of years, I may have developed the same godly characteristics He has. But even this I could never hope for unless it was His will that I attain it.

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful reply. So are you saying that you believe you can have the same characteristics as God, such as; agape love, joy. patience, and others listed in the scriptures as fruits of the Spirit, but that you (or any human in general) can never be equal to God, as in having the Self-existent omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent nature and essence of God?

 

[Jane.Doe]

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful reply. So are you saying that you believe you can have the same characteristics as God, such as; agape love, joy. patience, and others listed in the scriptures as fruits of the Spirit, but that you (or any human in general) as in having the Self-existent omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent nature and essence of God?

(I'm not Katz, but putting my input forth).

InChrist: you believe you can have the same characteristics as God, such as; agape love, joy. patience, and others listed in the scriptures as fruits of the Spirit,
Jane: yes.

InChrist: but that you (or any human in general) can never be equal to God,
Jane: yes.

InChrist: as in having the Self-existent omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent nature and essence of God?
Jane: this answer is more complicated, as Mormons have a different view on the essence of God than 'mainstream' Christians. A long discussion will be required before an adequate answer can be given.

Jane: we will also never not have God be our God.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful reply. So are you saying that you believe you can have the same characteristics as God, such as; agape love, joy. patience, and others listed in the scriptures as fruits of the Spirit, but that you (or any human in general) can never be equal to God, as in having the Self-existent omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent nature and essence of God?

I've put part of your quote in boldface. Would you mind explaining exactly what you mean by these words? I'm particularly confused by the word, "self-existent."

Or, let me put it another way: If you were directing your post to C.S. Lewis, after having read his words in my prior post, would you be asking him this same question, or do you believe his statement already addresses your question?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The bible is right, no one has ever seen God. But.... we can see God in so many different ways. We can see His creation, His ways in us and other people. It really doesnt mean face to face....

This makes no sense.

Jesus has seen his Father when he was on earth. Not face to face, but spiritualy and in purpose. And now that he is in heaven, he really has seen His father. We have to remember that Jesus is not God or his father or the creator. He is the son of God, not God the son. That is very important in understanding the bible and God's plan and purpose. Jesus was born a man, not born a God.

So, you're saying that Jesus, in His prehuman existence, never seen God?

 

[moorea944]

And yet the Bible also says that...

"...Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Genesis 32:30) Are you saying that even though it specifically states that Jacob saw Him "face to face," that he really didn't?

Moses also claimed to have seen God. "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." (Exodus 33:11) Again, the actual words "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" seem to be pretty straightforward. I can't imagine how it could have been stated more clearly that certain individuals have, in face, seen God.

So are you saying that God has some kind of physical form that could be seen by Jesus once He returned to Heaven?

And yet the Bible also says that...
"...Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Genesis 32:30) Are you saying that even though it specifically states that Jacob saw Him "face to face," that he really didn't?

Yes, scripture tells us that no one has ever seen God at any time. So... what would that mean and who are they seeing then... They are seeing an angel. They represent God.

Moses also claimed to have seen God. "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." (Exodus 33:11) Again, the actual words "face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" seem to be pretty straightforward. I can't imagine how it could have been stated more clearly that certain individuals have, in face, seen God.

Ok, if you think that people can see God and then the bible says you cant... then I would say there is something wrong here, wouldnt you say?......

So are you saying that God has some kind of physical form that could be seen by Jesus once He returned to Heaven?

I dont know. Bible doesnt say. What do you think?
Scripture also says that the angels can come into God's presence.

 

[moorea944]

This makes no sense.




So, you're saying that Jesus, in His prehuman existence, never seen God?

So, you're saying that Jesus, in His prehuman existence, never seen God?

Prehuman existence?... you mean when he was born a man, before he went to heaven? Yes. Does the bible say otherwise that he saw God when he was on earth?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Does a literal hell exist, the smoke rising “eis tous aionas ton aionon”? Yes, but that’s a different thread for a different time.

Didn't Jesus go to biblical hell the day Jesus' died ?_________ Acts of the Apostles 2:27
So, if a literal hell did Not exist, then Jesus could Not go to hell the day he died.

When Edom ( Idumea) was destroyed - Isaiah 34:5 - Isaiah wrote the smoke would go up forever - Isaiah 34:10
We know Edom's smoke is Not around today, but the forever ' smoke ' stands for Edom being gone forever.
Just as biblical hell ( the hell or grave that dead Jesus was in ) will also end up gone forever - Revelation 20:13-14

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Prehuman existence?... you mean when he was born a man, before he went to heaven? Yes. Does the bible say otherwise that he saw God when he was on earth?

Jesus was firstborn of every creature according to Colossians 1:15. So, Jesus had a pre-human heavenly existence in heaven before God sent Jesus to earth to be born as a human.

At Jesus' baptism the ' heavens ' were then opened up to Jesus - Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:21-22

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe you have ignored the evidence of Jesus who says that He and the Father are one.

Didn't Jesus also pray his followers be one as he and his Father are one - John 17:21-23; John 17:11 B
Surely Jesus was Not praying they all become God.

Who is greater according to John 14:28 ?______
Who is greater than ALL according to John 10:29 ?_______
Wouldn't ALL also include God being greater than Jesus ?_______

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I'm interested in hearing thoughts about (1) Where this idea comes from and (2) If you agree with it and why/why not. I have heard it described like this: Because of the Trinity, Jesus is God, and all the things done in the Old Testament were therefore done by Jesus prior to his human incarnation. Thoughts?

1, The idea comes from doctrine
2, I agree with it in principle , although Jesus said he was not god , and also prayed to god .
However the trinity is manifestations of God
Some religion have many manifestations of God so the trinity compared seems quite reasonable .
However there is only one god and Jesus s path is only one of many that do all lead to the same place.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, scripture tells us that no one has ever seen God at any time.

And scripture also tells us that men have.

So... what would that mean and who are they seeing then...

I believe it means that there are exceptions to the rule. Surely if it were God's will that someone see Him, He would be capable of making it happen.

They are seeing an angel. They represent God.

Scripture doesn't say they are seeing an angel, though; that's just what you say.

Ok, if you think that people can see God and then the bible says you cant... then I would say there is something wrong here, wouldnt you say?......

Not necessarily. Besides, if there's something wrong with my logic, how it is there's nothing wrong with yours? After all, if scripture specifically names people that have seen God, and you say it was just an angel, your logic is every bit as flawed as mine.

I dont know.

But if you don't know, why did you say, "And now that he is in heaven, he really has seen His father"?

Bible doesnt say. What do you think?

The Bible actually does say. In Acts 7:55, we read that Stephen, "being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God..." If Jesus was on the right hand of God, there would have had to be two physically distinct personages, both visible and occupying space.

Scripture also says that the angels can come into God's presence.

I'm not disputing that.

 

[james2ko]

Ok, that’s a fair criticism of my response James2k. By not being synonymous I am referring to the degree of equivalency. So while eternal and everlasting are similar, they are not equivalent and should not be used interchangeably. So it would be better to say eternal and everlasting are similar, but not equivalent. So while something eternal is certainly everlasting, something everlasting is not necessarily eternal.

1.. I'm afraid "equivalent" is yet another synonym for the term "synonym". source

Didn’t URAVIPTOME provide two contextual example scriptures supporting the fact they weren’t?

2. No. He merely provided another bible version's translation of the term.

I’m glad you mention that, because the context does speak for itself. There is only one who has eternal life, and that is God. The context at Matthew 19:16 is clearly talking about everlasting, not eternal life.

3. I believe God the Father has lived forever in the past, not the Son. However, you have yet to prove from the scriptures the difference between the terms everlasting and eternal life.

Mormons would use the NKJV version to show we can all obtain godhood. How would you explain the context to them?

4. I believe the scriptures correctly reflect this belief. And no, I am not nor have I ever been a Mormon.

I think what you missed is that translators translate rather than define words, but here’s a site that will explain the theological difference between eternal and everlasting. I’ll put their summary here:

1.According to the English language, “eternal” means “without beginning or end, always existing, lasting forever”; whereas “everlasting” means “lasting forever, lasting for a very long time, for an indefinitely long time.”​

2.Theologically, “eternal” means “not within any time limit, outside of time and existing without a beginning or end, like spirit”; whereas “everlasting” means “the life which did not always exist but was granted to God and it was forever, running within time, or something similar, which has a beginning but no end​

​

5. Thanks for the link. I'm not a fan of biblical philosophy. Neither was Paul (Col 2:8). I'm only interested on extracting the theology of the definition based on its use in the scriptures. Unfortunately, the Philosophical Theologian (I'm guessing that's a title) in your link did not utilize the scriptures to prove his "philosophy".

 

[moorea944]

This makes no sense.




So, you're saying that Jesus, in His prehuman existence, never seen God?

This makes no sense.

Jesus was firstborn of every creature according to Colossians 1:15. So, Jesus had a pre-human heavenly existence in heaven before God sent Jesus to earth to be born as a human.

At Jesus' baptism the ' heavens ' were then opened up to Jesus - Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:21-22

Jesus was firstborn of every creature according to Colossians 1:15. So, Jesus had a pre-human heavenly existence in heaven before God sent Jesus to earth to be born as a human.

"Creature" is a bad translation. Should be creation. But which creation? Paul says there are two.

1. "The firstborn of all creation" is qualified in verse 18 to be "the firstborn from the dead". Frequently an apparently absolute declaration is limited in application. Consider the following examples in which "all" is clearly to be understood in a restricted sense:
a. ". . . there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1). The "all" refers to the Roman world, not the areas of South, Central and North America.
b. "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers . . ." (John 10:8). The "all" does not refer to John the Baptist and other prophets.
c. See also Gen. 3:20 ("all living" did not include the beasts); Gen. 6:13 ("all flesh" did not include Noah and the creatures taken into the ark.)

2. The creation of which Christ is the first-born is the "creation" of new men and woman, and not the creation of light, dry land, etc. of Genesis. "Create" and "creation" are used of the work of Christ in this regenerative sense. Consider the following:
a. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10 cf. 4:23, 24).
b. ". . . for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." (Eph. 2:15).

3. The inspired Apostle, employing the Old Testament background of the first-born, is ascribing to Christ his position, rank, and status in the divine purpose. The following is a summary of this background:
a. The first-born succeeded his father as head. (2 Chron. 21:2, 3).
b. He received a double portion of the inheritance. (Deut. 21:17).
c. A younger son could be elevated to the position of first-born if there were personal unworthiness in the eldest. (1 Chron. 5:1).
Adam lost this privilege because of his personal unworthiness, but the last Adam became perfect, through things which he suffered, and inherited the "double portion". He became the "firstfruits of them that slept" - the "firstborn among many brethren" - "the head of the body, the church . . . that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20; Rom. 8:29).

4. "Who is the image of the invisible God." This is an obvious allusion to Gen. 1:26, "Let us make man in our image". Christ who was "full of grace and truth" demonstrated that he was the "image of the invisible God" by his faithfulness to death. In him both earthly and heavenly creatures are "created" because in him they have a new function in the divine purpose. The angels who "minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb. 1:14) have been instructed to pay him homage - "let the angels of God worship him." (Heb. 1:6).

5. Colossians 1, rather than supporting the trinitarian doctrine, is opposed to it. Consider the following:
a. If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), then he is a replica, not the original.
b. Christ is the "firstborn of every creature". (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" implies a beginning, therefore Christ is not the "Eternal" Son of God of the trinitarians.

 

[Notaclue]

Yoshua said: ↑
Hi firedragon,

Kindly take note of this:
God exists in three persons. One God (Father) exists in the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
It is not 3 in one. We don’t believe in three Gods (Tritheism), that is idolatry.



Could you please give me your definition of the Trinity? ..... Thanks


Peace.

 

[moorea944]

And scripture also tells us that men have.
I believe it means that there are exceptions to the rule. Surely if it were God's will that someone see Him, He would be capable of making it happen.

Scripture doesn't say they are seeing an angel, though; that's just what you say.

Not necessarily. Besides, if there's something wrong with my logic, how it is there's nothing wrong with yours? After all, if scripture specifically names people that have seen God, and you say it was just an angel, your logic is every bit as flawed as mine.

But if you don't know, why did you say, "And now that he is in heaven, he really has seen His father"?

The Bible actually does say. In Acts 7:55, we read that Stephen, "being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God..." If Jesus was on the right hand of God, there would have had to be two physically distinct personages, both visible and occupying space.

I'm not disputing that.

And scripture also tells us that men have.

Then we have a problem then. Scripture tells us that no man ever has. Plus, scripture tells us that we could never stand in His presence.

I believe it means that there are exceptions to the rule.

Absolutely not!! That is just humanism speaking.