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Is Jesus God?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Orbit, Feb 7, 2015.

  1. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

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    Jesus is the creator of ALL thing in heaven and on earth. All things in heaven would include angels. (See Col. 1:16-17)
     
  2. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    "Who is himself God"? It really says that in the Greek? No, it doesn't!
     
  3. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

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    I have no problem with the translation "Jesus, being in the form of God..." I agree with you that most translations render it as such. So what exactly did Paul mean when he said Jesus was in the "form of God?"

    Please share your thoughts on that.

    The Greek for our English word "form" is morphe, which is a pretty cool word when you think about it. It reminds me of the transformers my kids use to play with. They start out as a robot and can become a race car. The form changes, but the component parts are exactly the same.

    So Jesus is in the morphe of God.

    We know that, "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Heb. 1:3)

    Jesus is in the morphe of God. He is the exact representation of His being. What does this mean?

    I have no problem with translations which use the word "grasped." I agree with you that the word also means sieze. What I have a problem with is what YOU claim Paul is saying. You've completely twisted Paul's words, making it sound as if Jesus wouldn't dare try to grasp hold of equality with God.

    Let's look at the passage in context.

    Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    First and foremost, this is a message about being humble. Paul said Jesus existed in the morphe of God. Then he says Jesus didn't consider equality with God something to be siezed or grasped. When you sieze or grasp something, you hold onto it, so hold onto may not be the preferred translation, but it is still acceptable. The next point Paul makes clarifies everything. He says Jesus chose to empty Himself. Empty Himself of what? Referring back to verse 6, Jesus chose to empty Himself of that which he chose to not grasp, sieze or hold onto, that is, equality with God. He chose instead take on the morphe of a bond-servant, made in the likeness of men.
    Jesus is creator of ALL things in heaven and on earth. That would include the angels. Jesus is before ALL things.

    Can we at least agree that ALL things means ALL things? :)

    Col. 1:16-17
    16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

    Jesus, no doubt, created the angels before He created the earth. That harmonizes with the Col. passase above, which says Jesus created all things in heaven, and that He is before all things.

    Job 38
    4“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
    Tell me, if you know so much.
    5 Who determined its dimensions
    and stretched out the surveying line?
    6What supports its foundations,
    and who laid its cornerstone
    7as the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels shouted for joy
    ?
     
    #1243 katiemygirl, Dec 29, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
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  4. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

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    It reads, "monogenes Theos," which is the only begotten God.
     
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  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Thank you.
     
  6. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Once again, taken out of context to fit your beliefs. Look at it carefully. First of all, scripture tells us that God created the heavens and the earth. Your saying Jesus did. So we are going to differ on that one.

    Those who believe in the Trinity point to this verse and quote all things were created by him as proving that Jesus was God. But, if we look into the preposition by, we see that it means by reason of or for the sake of. Yahweh, who knows all, did create all things with His son in mind. And Jesus didnt create the angels. Jesus was made lower than the angels and your saying that he created them?
     
  7. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    1. Stress is often placed on Jesus' statement that he had glory with the Father. The J.W.'s in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translate this verse as follows: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." But the Greek preposition "para" translated "with" in the A.V. and "alongside" in the N.W.T. also occurs in John 1:6: "There was a man sent from {Greek: para} God, whose name was John." If the preposition in John 17:5 requires the literal pre-existence of Christ, then likewise it requires the literal pre-existence of John the Baptist. It is interesting that the N.W.T. inconsistently translates John 1:6 as follows: "There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John." There is no hint of pre-existence here.

    2 How could Jesus have glory with his Father "before the world was" if he did not literally pre-exist? An illustration is helpful: An architect sees and knows the beautiful details of his proposed construction before the site is prepared, or the foundation-stone laid. But God is the great Architect and in His divine plan, Christ was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) - the chief cornerstone "foreordained before the foundation of the world". (1 Peter 1:20). The building will duly be fitly framed together (Eph. 2:21) to constitute its part in the "kingdom prepared . . . from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 25:34). Christ was "foreordained", but not formed until born of the virgin Mary in the days of Herod the king. Likewise, the glory he had with his Father was in the divine plan of the great Architect. It was the subject of prophetic testimony "when it {the Spirit of Christ} testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow." (1 Peter 1:11 cf. John 12:41).

    3 Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the following:
    Of believers, Paul wrote:

    a "Whom he did foreknow." (Rom. 8:29).

    b "He had afore prepared {note the past tense} unto glory." (Rom. 9:23 cf. 2 Tim. 1:9).

    c "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." (Eph. 1:4).

    Of Jeremiah, the LORD said: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jer. 1:5).

    But who would contend for the pre-existence of Jeremiah and other believers because the language employed states that God knew them before they were born? Similarly, the language of John 17:5 must be understood in terms of this background. Unless the principle is recognized that God "calleth those things which be not as though they were" (Rom. 4:17), confusion will result in Biblical interpretation, as it does with the wrested pre-existence interpretation given to this passage in John's gospel.

    4 The context is sufficiently clear that Christ is not "Very God". His power and authority are derived, not innate: "As thou hast given him {Christ} power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." (John 17:2).
     
  8. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

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    Read Hebrews 1:2.

    You should try to find a time when you can read the Bible, without commentary, just you, God's Word, and the Holy Spirit who will teach you.

    Your post is obviously a cut and paste, and not your own thoughts and words. You are letting yourself be swayed by the opinions of men.

    I suggest you begin with John. Try reading it through, in one sitting, keeping an open mind and heart, if that's possible. Then read it again several more times.

    A friend told me recently that John's gospel teaches us who Jesus truly is. It's true. If the Apostle John can't convince you that Jesus is God, I doubt anyone can. So I won't waste any more of my time.
     
  9. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I"m glad you brought up John. Your right, John does teach us who Jesus is, along with other books, like Hebrews and Romans, which I have stated in the past. I know one thing, John does not teach the trinity at all. Jesus is the son of God, not God the son.
     
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  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I'm very disheartened right now! I have spent the last 40 minutes responding to your comments, and then, for some reason, my tablet cuts off, and I lose everything! And I don't have it in me right now to rewrite everything. I'll try to recap:

    "Exact representation of [God] "; "being in the form of God". Why not just say, 'Jesus, who was God.....', if that's what Paul meant? It would have saved paper, time, and ink. But Paul never did ! Instead, Paul referred to God as "the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ."


    Galatians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead" Would've been a perfect opportunity to say 'God the Son', but Paul never did! In fact, that phrase is never found in the Bible! (Why is 'God the Holy Ghost' excluded? Maybe, cause there is none?)And how did Peter refer to the One who raised Jesus from the dead? In Acts of the Apostles 2, he said, "This Jesus, God resurrected." This coincides nicely with Jesus' own words to Martha at John 20:17, "I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

    See, God didn't change. Only the way to worship Him changed....through Jesus. That's why both parts of the Bible -- the part about the Israelites, and the part about the Christians -- are contained together, in one book, all called the Bible.

    Considering the importance of what's written at Exodus 20:1-6, I'll play it safe and worship the God who Jesus worshipped! And I'll worship the Father through Jesus (John 14:6) Compare John 4:23-24.

    BTW, regarding Philippians 2, you mention the context. How come you stopped at verse 8? (Most trinitarians do, I noticed.) Verse 8 states Jesus "became obedient". To whom? Verses 9-11, part of the context, answers that. Plus, it raises the question, 'If the Trinity is right, how could Jesus be "exalted to a superior position"? If he had been (part) God before coming to Earth, he would've been given the same position he had before.'

    Yes, I agree, context is essential!
     
  11. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Good point. Also we must keep in mind that the Trinitarians dont want to read in Phil 2, is the next verse. Paul tells everyone that Jesus made himself NO REPUTATION of those things.... But for some reason or another, Jesus is God. Wow. We need to really be careful on what we believe. John 17 tells us that it is life eternal to KNOW the "one true God' AND Jesus Christ.
     
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  12. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

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    I feel your pain. That has happened to me on more than one occasion.


    So what does it mean that Jesus existed in the morphe or form of God? I'd really appreciate an answer.


    I don't have an answer for why Paul wrote what he did or why he didn't write certain things. None of us knows, except for the Holy Spirit who guided him as he wrote. We can only suppose, and of course, our suppositions will come from our biases.

    I agree that God did not change.

    What do you mean by "safe?" Do you think all those people we read about in the Bible who worshiped Jesus will be thrown into the lake of fire?
    I stopped at verse 8 because I had made my point, which was about Jesus humbling Himself. I'm happy to include verses 9-11 in the discussion. I don't avoid any verse in the Bible.

    Here is what I wrote about 6-8..

    Paul said Jesus existed in the morphe of God. Then he says Jesus didn't consider equality with God something to be siezed or grasped. When you sieze or grasp something, you hold onto it, so hold onto may not be the preferred translation, but it is still acceptable. The next point Paul makes clarifies everything. He says Jesus chose to empty Himself. Empty Himself of what? Referring back to verse 6, Jesus chose to empty Himself of that which he chose to not grasp, sieze or hold onto, that is, equality with God. He chose instead take on the morphe of a bond-servant, made in the likeness of men.

    Please answer the question I asked the first time I posted this. Paul says Jesus emptied Himself. I'm asking you to explain "emptied Himself of what?"

    Continuing with 9-11
    9
    For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Now to answer your question, "Jesus became obedient to who?"

    Jesus became obedient to God, His Father in heaven.

    You also asked,
    'If the Trinity is right, how could Jesus be "exalted to a superior position"? If he had been (part) God before coming to Earth, he would've been given the same position he had before.

    I looked at the various translations of verse 9, and there isn't one that says God exalted Jesus to a superior position. I couldn't find the word superior in the Greek. They all basically say God highly exalted Him.

    We know that God raised Jesus from death to be with him in the highest place of honour. He bestowed upon Him the name higher than any other name.

    The Greek translation of the OT Scriptures used the word "kyrios" to translate the Hebrew word for God. Verse 11 tells us that every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of His Father.

    God has made Him both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36)

    In Isaiah 45:23, God declared, "That to Me every knee will bow,..." . God gave this same right to Jesus. When people give honor to Jesus, they will be giving honor to God the Father.
     
    #1252 katiemygirl, Dec 30, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Good morning!

    Actually. Katie, I've answered that question: Jesus was "in the form of God" when he was a spirit. That's what form God is, He's in a spirit form.

    And all spirit creatures have a greater glory than humans. That's what Jesus emptied Himself of, he became "a little lower than the Angels." --Psalms 8:5; Hebrews 2:7-9

    I don't want to be antagonistic, but it's obvious Paul didn't think Jesus was God.

    You know, I have a model of the Seattle Space Needle. It's awesome! It's an exact representation, just on a smaller scale. It mirrors it perfectly, but it's not the real thing.

    Thank you for quoting the rest of those pertinent verses, 9-11.

    You recognize that "God highly exalted" Jesus. Don't you think, if Jesus was God, he would have already had that exalted position? No one would have to give him anything!

    And as you said, God is the Father of Jesus. Father means "life-giver." Yes, God gave Jesus life; He created him before anything or anyone else. (Revelation 3:12-14) Jesus is called the "only-begotten Son," because He's the only one directly created by His Father. And Yehweh God loved His first-born Son so much, that He used him in the creation of everything else. It's all "through him", and "for him."


     
  14. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    I think being in the form of God wouldnt mean he's in a spirit form, I think it's more "mind-like".

    That "form" (Greek 'morphe') cannot refer to essential nature is proved by Phil.2:7 speaking of Christ taking on "the form of a servant". He had the form of God, but he took on the form of a servant. The essential nature of a servant is no different to that of any other man. In harmony with the context, we can safely interpret this as meaning that although Jesus was perfect, he had a totally God-like mind, yet he was willing to take on the demeanour of a servant. Some verses later Paul encourages us to become "conformable unto (Christ's) death" (Phil.3:10). We are to share the 'morphe', the form of Christ which he showed in his death. This cannot mean that we are to share the nature which he had then, because we have human nature already. We do not have to change ourselves to have human nature, but we need to change our way of thinking, so that we can have the 'morphe' or mental image which Christ had in his death.

    The Greek word 'morphe' means an image, impress or resemblance. Human beings are spoken of as having "a form ('morphe') of Godliness" (2 Tim.3:5). Gal.4:19 speaks of "Christ (being) formed in" believers. Because he had a perfect character, a perfectly God-like way of thinking, Jesus was "in the form of God". Because of this, it was not "robbery" for him to think or know that in this sense he was one with God. The N.I.V. gives a different translation of this phrase, saying that Jesus did not consider equality with God "something to be grasped at". If this translation is correct, (which is also supported by the R.S.V.) then this totally disproves the theory that Jesus was God. According to the N.I.V. translation, Jesus did not for a moment entertain the idea of being equal with God; he knew that he was subject to God, and not co-equal with Him.


    He didnt become lower than the angels. If he did, then it would say that he pre-existed, which he didnt. And... that he was higher and then became lower and then became higher again. What scripture tells us is that he was "made" lower than the angels. He was born lower than the angels. That also tells us that he wasnt God.


    I totally agree with you on this point. Paul and everyone else didnt think Jesus was God at any point!
     
  15. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

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    Paul tells us to have the attitude of Christ Jesus when He lived on earth. (v.5), and then in v.6, he says although being in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.

    Paul writes about Jesus "being in the form of God" while on earth. The word being indicates a condition that began in the past and continues into the present. In other words, there was never a time when Jesus did not exist in the form of God.

    The Greek word is hyparchon meaning subsisting. Paul spoke of Christ as existing in the form of God. The term hyparchon is not a past tense form. It is a present tense participle. Most translations say existing in the form of or being in the form of God.

    He laid aside His divine priviledges, not His divine attributes. He never stopped being God.

    Paul tells us in Col. 2:9 that in Him the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form...

    Do you deny the divinity or deity of Christ?
     
    #1255 katiemygirl, Dec 30, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  16. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

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    Rev. 3:14 does not say God created Jesus. You are reading that into the verse to support your theology. You are refusing to consider other possible translations of the word arche.

    746. arché
    Strong's Concordance
    arché: beginning, origin
    Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: arché
    Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
    Short Definition: ruler, beginning
    Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

    What verse says God created Jesus then used Jesus to create everything else?
     
    #1256 katiemygirl, Dec 30, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Just thought I would add this since I stumbled across it while reading at home:

    Acts 2:36-39
    36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God (theos) has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord (kyrios) and Messiah (christos).”
    37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
    38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ (christos) for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord (kyrios) our God (theos) will call.”


    So per Peter (as told by Luke):
    God (theos) made Jesus both Lord (kyrios) and Messiah (christos).
    People are to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    The Lord (kyrios) our God (theos) will call them.

    So is Jesus the (kyrios) the same (kyrios) that will call them (and therefore, also "kyrios egō theos")?
    Later in Acts2:47 "And the Lord (kyrios) added to their number daily those who were being saved." ... so which (kyrios)
    ... (kyrios) in whose name they were baptized?
    ... (kyrios) who called them?
    ... were they the same (kyrios)?

    Not looking to beat anyone up (frankly, my Greek isn't that good).
    I just see in these verses an amazing mystery revealed that (theos) was always (kyrios), is still (kyrios) and shall always be (kyrios).
    That is the unchanging divinity of Jesus.
    What God (theos) begat, was the awaited Messiah (christos) ... Deity Incarnate ... fully eternal (kyrios) and fully temporal man.
    Thus the (kyrios) of Acts 2:36, Acts 2:39 and Acts 2:47 are all the same (kyrios). The "one true eternal everlasting God who saves and who is alone to be worshiped".

    Your Mileage Will Undoubtedly Vary.
    (But I felt like sharing anyway)
    God Bless.
     
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  18. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    This is no verse that says that. But there are verses that says that God made Jesus. Same as created if you want to use that. But Jesus was made by God. Also Jesus didnt create anything, God did. God created the heavens and the earth. If we say that Jesus did, we now have a contradiction.

    Isaiah 44 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

    That is just one of many verses that tells us that God created everything. Jesus wasnt born, made, created yet.

    Luke 1, angels tells Mary she will have a child by God's Spirit (or power, not a person).
    Jesus was "born" this day.......

    Romans 1 Jesus was "made" of the seed of David.

    Heb 2 tells us that he was like us and had the same nature too.

    He was "made" lower than the angels.

    If you want to use the word "made" or 'created" or "born" that's up to you. Can we say that we were made or created by God? If we can, then we use that for Jesus too.
     
  19. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    You can't have forgotten John 1 already.
    Even if Jesus isn't God, the LOGOS made everything and the LOGOS became Jesus.
    And Jesus said he existed before Abraham.
    There is clearly both a human (born in Bethlehem, died in Jerusalem) part to Jesus nature, and a 'really old/eternal' part.
    To deny that (setting aside his deity) is to simply refuse to read what scripture says.

    EDIT: Sorry, That reads stronger than I intended it. [insert light-hearted emoticon]
     
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  20. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Of course not, I know John 1 very well.

    And what is the Logos? Is is God's word, plans, reasons, etc. Jesus was in God's plans right from the beginning. God sees the beginning and the end. So the glory was there right from the beginning with His son.

    No he didnt. He was saying that he and the gosple was preached before Abraham.

    Not at all. There is a human part of Jesus, but since he did not pre-exist, there is no past eternal part. He is NOW immortal in heaven.

    Are you saying that if someone denies that Jesus is God is to refuse what scriptures say? Then yes, I deny that Jesus is God. But I know what scripture says.
     
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