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Is Jesus God and How Not to Use Hebrew

Discussion in 'Christianity in General DIR' started by sandy whitelinger, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    man, did u not study my above posts??? Jesus is God! look at my posts, the evidence of scripture is overwhelming!!!!!!! ugh.
     
  2. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Joe, all of this is good but I fear this might turn into another 300 response thread on the deity of Christ. I'd like to narrow it down to Psalm 110 if you like.
     
  3. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    I'll have to look into it to be sure but perhaps the all caps is used because the Hebrew for Jehovah was used in that place. But the problem I'm trying to address in general and more specifically here is how running to the Hebrew (by those not extremely well schooled in Hebrew and Biblical knowledge) winds up hoplessly twists any understanding. Following the thread through the English will carry you to a conclusion. In Psalm 110 it is obviously refering to Christ as the Messiah. Follow then the reference to the day of wrath and and making his enemies His footstool and it will be inescapable that Christ is diety. The only way around this is to either get people lost in variations of Hebrew (or Greek or for that matter even English) words or trivializing books like Revelation or refering to Paul or John as an inept commentators.


    I do believe that the Pharasees did their homework and knew that Messiah would be "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" and a descendant of David. Their problem, as I see the problem of a few people, here is that Jesus pointed their inability to see that David would call his son Lord only if he was deity.

    Maybe some of those who like to run and put everything in it's historical and cultural context could point out that elevating an offspring to a higher place than the father (in this case referring to a 14th generation removed son as Lord) was frowned upon. Refer to the dreams of Joseph when the sun, moon and stars made obesience to him. This puzzled Joseph's brothers and father because that meant that they were going to bow down (if that's the right term) to a son and a younger brother.
     
  4. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Oh, okay, sorry! Yeah, I believe psalm 110 is about the messiah, who I believe is Jesus, who I believe is God the Son. But I will just state my belief and leave it at that.
     
  5. DTrent

    DTrent Member

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    Actually, the evidence is overwhelming that Christ is THE SON OF GOD.
    Jehovah & Jesus are 2 different individuals. When researching various Bibles, the honest, humble & hungry Bible student will come to this conclusion. It is simple & straight-forward, easy for the simple person to grasp. No one need be a 'scholar' to believe this. The simplier, the better. Jesus was a common Jew, a man for the people. He was not high-minded. His teachings are for EVERYONE.
     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes i agree with this, it seems very plain to me from the bible ,that Jehovah and Jesus are seperate , Father and first-born son.
     
  7. DTrent

    DTrent Member

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  8. wmam

    wmam Active Member

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    Baali?

    Theres another.

    Midnightblue..........I for one do understand what you have been trying so hard to explain. Shame that those out there do not get enough debate on the "Debate" threads that they have to use the "Discussion" threads also. ;)

    I am a firm believer that the english translation is faulty at best and misleading to so many. For the unlearned, one could read in the english context that the Most High is an alien and floats around in a spaceship. I'll stick to the Hebrew and Aramaic context for understanding when deciphering the words that where written by Hebrews, for Hebrews and about Hebrews. :rolleyes:
     
  9. Mystic-als

    Mystic-als Active Member

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    DTrent - "John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
    ^Have YOU ever said in excitement, "OH MY GOD!!"
    Here is a classic figure of speech! "

    I have said that phrase. But to think that that is the context with which Thomas used it is laughable.

    On the whole though your post makes for interesting reading. But like
    wmam said - "stick to the Hebrew and Aramaic context for understanding".

    A simple Strongs concordance will go a long way to understanding the word and it's different meanings.

    I hope you didn't just copy and paste here. I really hope you read through it and have thought about what is said in the post.

    To make things clear. You are saying that Jesus was not God. But merely his son (like you and me).
     
  10. DTrent

    DTrent Member

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    Sorry that you think the figures of speech in the Bible are "laughable". One has to admit that they DO make the belief true though just like in the other Bible verses that are figures of speech.

    No, I did not simply copy & paste. I read thru your posts & have thought about what was said.

    Yes, your conclusion about making things clear is correct. I am saying that Jesus was not God.
    Thanx for listening...
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Present it.
     
  12. Elvendon

    Elvendon Mystical Tea Dispenser

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    I believe, therefore he is...

    :run:

    Seriously, what alternative version of Christian soteriology (that does not involve Jesus as God suffering on the cross as either a sacrifice or a theosifying device for humanity) do you present that makes more sense? You can't just remove a vital aspect of the Kerygma and expect the entire house of Christianity to remain standing.

    I'm happy to consider any alternatives you present, so go right ahead.
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    The question is worthless and nonresponsive. Most good fiction "makes sense". Indeed, on some level, most enduring myths "make sense" at some level, but none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the claim that "the evidence is overwhelming that Christ is THE SON OF GOD" and my request that this 'overwhelming evidence' be presented.
     
  14. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Elvendon, Jay is right. The word evidence is used far too much in the religious community and if one wants to be honest about our position, then we should present it as is. How else are we to keep dialogue intellectually honest. Besides, Jay is allowed to ask questions in this forum. Asking him questions must be taken outside of this forum section.

    ~Victor
     
  15. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Why would Jesus not simply say "I am God, the Creator of the universe"?

    Is the Son of God not enough?
     
  16. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    How would that change things in your mind?
     
  17. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    It would change the following things in my mind:
    -God connects to each sentient person through the soul. He experiences everything that you experience through the five senses. Jesus is not directly in this loop.

    -Jesus is a created Son of God sent out to this area of the universe to ensure the universe follows God's plan.

    -Jesus chose the earth for His final bestowal before assuming the leadership of this area of the universe because as a created Son of God who governs sentient beings He must know what their life experience is like.

    -With help, Jesus oversees the adjudication of each sentient personality. If your soul has not already fused with your personality this is your last chance. Universal beings can force the fusion to take place if you have earned it but for some reason it did not naturally take place.

    -If Jesus was God then I would think the universe was a much smaller place.

    I have absolutely no doubt that God exists and that Jesus is His Son.
     
  18. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Christianity would disagree with you on this.
    Christianity would again disagree with you on this. Jesus Christ is begotten, not created. I'll leave it to you to research the difference.
    My previous comments should cover this.
    This went over my head.
    Huh?
     
  19. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Here is my thought in a nutshell. i don't speak or claim to understand Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. Neither do I believe that those here who claim to have some understanding of original languages have a greater understanding of original languages or theology to be able to translate better than those who translated it in the first place.

    It has been my observation that those who presently try to use original languages distort (either purposely or unwittingly) the plain English understanding.
     
  20. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Christianity would disagree with me on this? Who's Christianity? Old time fire and brimstone religion? You're right, I'm sure they wouldn't even consider me a Christian.

    Jesus is doing the job He was created for.

    Christ is begotten? Okay dictionary.com says begot means:
    1 : to procreate as the father : SIRE
    2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth

    To procreate or produce is not to create? Aren't we really splitting hairs here?

    Okay, there is a judgement day but it's not a set date on any calendar. Judgement day is for individuals not all of humanity at one time. After death your personality travels to a higher level where you are greeted and led to your judgement. I doubt Jesus conducts this personally. By the way, this is temporarily (for 3,000 years) suspended until after Lucifer's case is resolved.

    If you deserve salvation your soul should have already fused with your human personality and you can continue on the higher path toward heaven. It's a long road, there is much to learn about the universe and just because your soul has fused does not mean that heaven is assured. Beings do take steps backwards and there is the ultimate penalty of annihilation (not eternal hell, but annihilation from energy that's best described as fire) given to those who go against God and deny diety.

    Like any complex thing sometimes souls do not fuse with personalities that have earned it. If at your adjudication this is discovered a claim will be submitted to higher beings (Ancients of Days) that can force the fusion to take place.

    I do not believe that God visits each planet with sentient beings. There are trillions of planets out there. Trillions.

    I believe Jesus when He said that He is the Son of God.

     
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