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Is Jesus God and How Not to Use Hebrew

Discussion in 'Christianity in General DIR' started by sandy whitelinger, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    No, the claim here is that it is not a word which is used only of God. Not in Hebrew, not in Greek, and not in English. I honestly don't know whether you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or you're just too obtuse to understand it. But it's getting a little old.
     
  2. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Sandy,

    What Paulthinks about Who Christ was or was not is of interest to me, but it is not authoritative to me.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  3. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    Exactly. I'm not allowed to frubal you again yet, but I tried. :)
     
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  4. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Which pretty much means that we have nothing to say to each other then. To speak of part of the Bible without using all of the Bible is pointless, especially since we are discussing the Messiah.
     
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  5. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    I assume you are addressing me.
    The problem is that strict literalism gets one nowhere in understanding holy text. It is written in parable, metaphor, symbology and in layers of all those things as well as being occasionally literal.

    Jesus can't BE Melchizedel unless He is some kind of reincarnation of Melchizedek, and I doubt you believe in reincarnation.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  6. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Perhaps you just didn't understand the implication of what you said. So.... let me quote you again.


    The clear implication of your words are that the Hebrew word used (which by the way was not ladonee) is not intended to be used for God. I proved otherwise. That you try and change your meaning after the fact doesn't discount what you said.

    Now as to this:

    Your logic is what failed you not mine. That you cannot figure out what Jesus was saying is that, one, you put your own word in instead of the one that was used and two you won't accept the idea that David called his son Lord because his son was God. until you come up with an acceptable reason for this then you are only left with the reason you won't accept.
     
  7. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    The claim is not that Christ is a reincarnation of Melchizidek but that He is a priest after the order of Melchizidek. Christ was a priest and king but could not be a Levitical priest because He was from the tribe of Levi. Yet trying to explain the meaning of this , which is explained in Hebrews, is pointless since you won't accept Hebrews.
     
  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    I only respect Hebrews and the other Epistles as commentary. Commentary is not authoritative. If Jesus says it, I will acept it as authoritative, but not if He did not say it. I have trouble with Revelations because it is patently a vision being described, and John, however holy, is capable of error in understanding what he sees and hears.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    Okay, pay attention for just one minute:

    "My own word," as you call it, is a synonym for "your" word, the word you believe -- for reasons I can't begin to imagine -- was used in the original text. Lord and Master are both appropriate here. Neither one refers only to God.

    If you don't understand by now, you probably never will. I agree that your logic hasn't failed. What logic?
     
  10. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Well, there is lots of evidence for the Deity of Christ. But, I just had a couple verses I think suggest it:

    2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    (King James Bible, Philippians)


    3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
    (King James Bible, 1 Timothy)

    14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    (King James Bible, Philippians)


    20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    (King James Bible, Acts)

    1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    (King James Bible, John)
    5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    (King James Bible, 1 John)

    I would add that Jesus accepted worship many times in the gospel accounts, and Peter and Paul and even angels would not accept worship, saying worship only GOD, therefore, Jesus is God IMO. God the Father is God, and God the Son is God, and God the Holy Spirit is God, and they are one God. There is tons more proof, but I just wanted to share that little bit. Thanks.
     
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  11. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Sandy.......Did you forget about lil' 'ol me?
     
  12. DTrent

    DTrent Member

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    Isn't the point being in the Scripture that Jesus is David's son in the sense that he's in his lineage? Jesus is called Lord but not LORD. (The all-caps indicate God, not Christ.)
    Inotherwords, the Pharisees should have done their homework & realized that Jesus came in the line of David & truly was the Messiah. They just did not want to admit it.
     
  13. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I got this from the following, it is 3 parts, (posts)

    http://www.jimfeeney.org/deityofjesuschrist.htm

    John 5:17-18 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


    John 10:30-33 “I and the Father are one.” Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God

    Philippians 2:5-6 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

    Jesus did not hesitate to claim equality with God the Father. The Greek word for equal in John 5:18 is isos, as in an isosceles, or equal-sided, triangle. Jesus was and is “in very nature God,” and therefore was not blaspheming by claiming to be God. The disbelieving Jews had correctly heard Jesus to be making this claim to full deity, even though they rejected His claim.

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    Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another...

    Isaiah 48:11c I will not yield my glory to another.

    John 17:5 [Jesus prayed] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    In Isaiah, God says that He will not give away His glory to another. Yet Jesus, in John 17, is expecting to receive again the divine glory He shared with the Father before the world began. If Jesus were not deity, this would be a contradiction.

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    Micah 5:2, King James Version But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    Vs. 2b, New American Standard Bible His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.

    Jesus, whose earthly birth is prophesied here, is said to be “from of old, from everlasting,” or “from the days of eternity.” He is not a created being. Rather, He has existed from all eternity.

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    Revelation 1:8, 17-18 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” ... [17] When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    Revelation 22:12-13, 16 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.... [16] “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

    Note the glorious titles of “the Alpha and the Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last,” “the Almighty,” “the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come.” Read all these titles of Deity, and note that every one in the context can be applied specifically to Jesus. This book is the revelation of Jesus the Divine Son!

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    Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

    Matthew 1:23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.”

    Isaiah gave us this glorious prophecy of Jesus’ virgin birth. Matthew amplifies the prophecy by identifying this promised Son as “Immanuel — which means ‘God with us.’ ” Jesus is “GOD with us”! “A son”, yes. But also “God”!

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    Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Jesus, the prophesied son, “will be called...Mighty God.”

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    John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    The apostle Thomas correctly addressed Jesus as “My Lord and my God.”

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    Psalms 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    “Your throne, O God” — The Old Testament Hebrew word used here is Elohim, used for “God” well over a thousand times in the Bible. This exact scripture from the Psalm is quoted in Hebrews and is applied to Jesus the Son. Jesus is God! Not just “a god,” as some would have us believe. The New Testament Greek word for “God” that is specifically applied to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8 is Theos, used for “God” over 1,300 times in the New Testament.

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    John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Jesus is called “the Word,” the Logos, of God. As the Logos, He is the manifestation or expression of God to us, “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being” (Hebrews 1:3). He “came from the Father.” As the Logos, Jesus “the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

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    Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

    Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    In Exodus God commands that He alone be worshiped. Jesus reiterated the commandment to worship God only. Yet God the Father’s command in Hebrews 1:6 that His angels worship the Son indicates that the Son too is God. If Jesus were not Deity, this would be idolatry.

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    1 Timothy 3:16, King James Version And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

    “GOD was manifest in the flesh,” clearly in context referring to Jesus.

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    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Hebrews 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

    Colossians 1:15-16 He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    John 1:1-3, 10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.... [10] He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    The Bible speaks of both God the Father and Jesus being Creator of all. Jesus is divine, the Co-Creator!
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  14. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    John 5:22-23 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
    Jesus is to be given equal honor with the Father.
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    Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
    In His Great Commission baptismal command, Jesus said to baptize in the name (not “names”) of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is a strong implication of coequality among Father, Son and Holy Spirit in this verse.
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    Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
    Ezekiel 34:31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.
    John 10:14 I [Jesus] am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me.
    Hebrews 13:20 ...our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep...
    Often in the Old Testament God is referred to as the Shepherd of His flock, His people. Jesus said of Himself, “I am the good shepherd.”
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    Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
    “...God...His own blood”! The blood of Jesus Christ, shed for our redemption, is called God’s own blood. The blood of Deity, nothing less!
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    Isaiah 8:13-14a The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread, and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he [the Lord Almighty] will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.
    1 Peter 2:4, 7-8a As you come to him [Jesus], the living Stone — rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him — ...[7] Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”
    It is evident that the “stone that causes men to stumble and [the] rock that makes them fall” of Isaiah and Peter are one and the same. The wording in the Old and New Testaments is identical. Peter knows Him as Jesus Christ; Isaiah calls Him “The Lord Almighty”! The name “the Lord Almighty” is used in the Bible, then, to identify both Jesus the Son and God the Father.
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    Exodus 3:13-14 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
    John 8:58-59 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
    God identified Himself to Moses by the name “I AM.” Jesus identified Himself to the Jews as that very same “I AM.” The Jews knew exactly what He was claiming and sought to stone Him for such apparent blasphemy — that is, His (true!) claim to be the “I AM” who spoke to Moses.
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    Isaiah 11:1-2 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him — the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
    Jeremiah 23:5-6 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.
    Jesus Christ is the Lord’s Branch from the line of David. Jeremiah prophesied that the name of this Branch would be “The Lord our Righteousness” — in Hebrew, JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU. The divine name JEHOVAH (some translate it Yahweh) is applied to Jesus Christ.
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    Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: “In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.
    Mark 1:1-3 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way” — “a voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”
    Isaiah speaks of a messenger preparing the way for “our God.” Mark shows that Isaiah’s prophecy spoke of John the Baptist’s preparing for the coming of JESUS! Truly He is “our God.” It is small wonder that Thomas, beholding the resurrected Son, could cry, “My Lord and my God!”
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    Hebrews 3:3-4 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.
    In verse 3 Jesus is the builder. In verse 4 God is the builder of all.
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  15. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Jesus is part of the three-person God-Head (God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). Unlike any other prophet, as muslims will relegate Him to, He claimed to be God in the flesh (John 8:58 "Before Abraham was "I AM") and in John 5:18, John writes "Therefore the religious leaders sought all the more to kill Him, not only because He broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Him equal with God". He never referred to Himself as a son of God, but the Son of God.

    Unlike any other prophet, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men stating in John 5:22 "The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the Son". Unlike any other prophet, Jesus demanded equal honor with the Father, for in John 5:23, "He stated "All should honor the Son, just as they honor the Father". "He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent Him".

    Unlike any other prophet, Jesus claimed to dispense eternal life. In John 5:24, Jesus said "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my Word and believes in Him who sent me, has everlasting life and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life". In John 14:6, Jesus said, "Iam the Way, the Truth and The Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me".

    Based on historical record as delineated in the scriptures, no other prophet made these claims or was shown worthy of these claims like Jesus. Either you believe through faith that He was the second person of the God-head in the flesh or relegate Him to being a nice man, a prophet of God, but seriously deranged in His thinking regarding His status in God's eyes.
     
  16. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Blueman,

    Here are the verses in context, which helps immensely:
    "5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
    5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
    5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
    5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth."
    (King James Bible, John)

    Reading it all where does Jesus claim to even be the Son of God? he is claiming to be the Son of Man, which is a different kettle of fish.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  17. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    Nowhere does Jesus claim to be God. The teaching that Jesus is God comes from Johannine and Pauline (and pseudo-Pauline) literature. Paul never met Jesus, except in claimed ecstatic religious experiences, and his teachings are of dubious worth. Better to stick with Jesus. :)
     
  18. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    All that's interesting as well but the quotes I gave you did not come from Paul.
     
  19. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Fine, go back to the quote out of Matthew 22.

    [42] Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
    [43] He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
    [44] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    [45] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Now this is Christ speaking and it refers to Psalm 110:4 which says:

    "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

    This was speaking of Messiah and pegs Him as a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

    Now I really didn't need Hebrews did I? I guess though as a "commentary" then Hebrews seems pretty accurite, eh?

    Now back to your original question.

    So, by the words of Christ and the original Psalm we are refering to I would say yes, Christ is interested in the mantle of Melchizedek and this refers to Messiah.
     
  20. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    You know, if you want to throw barbs back and forth I'm perfectly capable but it gets tiresome. Now why do I think that word I refered to was used in the original text, well it's because when I go to my Strong's concordance that's the word that was offered. Now, do you have a better source or is it as I suspect that you are just making this up as you go along to fit the idea you have that Messiah can't be divine?
     
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