Is Jesus God and How Not to Use Hebrew

sandy whitelinger · Mar 14, 2006

This is from the thread "Did Jesus claim to be God." I use the same argument that Jesus uses, Matthew 22:43-45. From that point forward they asked Him no more questions. In trying to dispute whether this was a claim of the Divinity of Messiah this was posted:

MidnightBlue said:
This is the passage:
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?

They say unto him, The son of David.

He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD ['o kyrios] said unto my Lord [to kyrio mou], Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Jesus is here quoting Psalm 110:
The LORD [YHWH] said unto my Lord [adon], Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The LORD [YHWH] shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:
thou hast the dew of thy youth.
The LORD [YHWH] hath sworn, and will not repent,
Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
The Lord [Adonai] at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
He shall judge among the heathen,
he shall fill the places with the dead bodies;
he shall wound the heads over many countries.
He shall drink of the brook in the way:
therefore shall he lift up the head.

Rather than sidetracking the thread with interpretations of this saying, let's concentrate on whether Jesus is claiming that the Messiah will be God. He's not. The text we have, in Greek, may somewhat obscure the point -- although I really think it's clear in Greek and English. But in Hebrew the Psalm uses a word for "to my lord" (ladonee) that is a form of the common noun adon -- lord, master, owner. It's the word by which Eliezer refers to Abraham, and the word by which Joseph's brothers and servants refer to Joseph.

Jesus is saying, "If the Messiah is a descendant of David, why does David call him 'Master'?" It's an interesting question, and would make an interesting thread. But it's not a claim that the Messiah is God.

The claim here is that the Hebrew term used in Psalm 110:1 which refers to the Messiah is not an Hebrew word which refers to God. Unfortunatly the poster did not do their homework. That particular word in Hebrew refers to God at least 25 times:

Deut. 10:17 (twice), Josh, 3:11 and 3:13, Jgs, 6:13, Neh. 8:10 and 10:29, Ps8:1 and 9, Ps. 97:5, Ps. 114:7, Ps. 135:5, Ps. 136:3 (twice), Ps 147:5, Is. 1:24, Is 3:1, Is. 10:33, Is 19:30, Is. 51:22, Hos. 12:14, Mic 4:13, Zec. 4:4 and 6:5, and Mal. 3:1.

This is one example of what I say when I point out how people use original language to try and distort scriptural meaning.

Smoke · Mar 14, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
The claim here is that the Hebrew term used in Psalm 110:1 which refers to the Messiah is not an Hebrew word which refers to God. Unfortunatly the poster did not do their homework. That particular word in Hebrew refers to God at least 25 times:

Deut. 10:17 (twice), Josh, 3:11 and 3:13, Jgs, 6:13, Neh. 8:10 and 10:29, Ps8:1 and 9, Ps. 97:5, Ps. 114:7, Ps. 135:5, Ps. 136:3 (twice), Ps 147:5, Is. 1:24, Is 3:1, Is. 10:33, Is 19:30, Is. 51:22, Hos. 12:14, Mic 4:13, Zec. 4:4 and 6:5, and Mal. 3:1.

This is one example of what I say when I point out how people use original language to try and distort scriptural meaning.

This is, rather, an example of your inability to understand plain English. It's not even necessary to check your references, since I never said that the word could not be used of God, and was never used of God. It shouldn't be necessary to remind you of what I did say, since you just quoted it, but let's try again:

The text we have, in Greek, may somewhat obscure the point -- although I really think it's clear in Greek and English. But in Hebrew the Psalm uses a word for "to my lord" (ladonee) that is a form of the common noun adon -- lord, master, owner. It's the word by which Eliezer refers to Abraham, and the word by which Joseph's brothers and servants refer to Joseph.

Jesus is saying, "If the Messiah is a descendant of David, why does David call him 'Master'?" It's an interesting question, and would make an interesting thread. But it's not a claim that the Messiah is God.

The word in question is not applied only to God. Therefore, this passage is not proof of a claim to divinity.

And as I said, I think the meaning is clear in English and in Greek. However, there are obviously people, including native speakers of English, who have problems with English, as well.

sandy whitelinger · Mar 14, 2006

Let me help you out with English interpretation. You said:

MidnightBlue said:
But in Hebrew the Psalm uses a word for "to my lord" (ladonee) that is a form of the common noun adon -- lord, master, owner. It's the word by which Eliezer refers to Abraham, and the word by which Joseph's brothers and servants refer to Joseph..

The implication is that the Hebrew is not used for God in that you went on to say:

MidnightBlue said:
Jesus is saying, "If the Messiah is a descendant of David, why does David call him 'Master'?"

In Both the Hebrew and the English "Lord" is used yet you went and tried to insert "master" thereby implying that the use of the Hebrew and thereby the Greek meant master.

Smoke · Mar 14, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
In Both the Hebrew and the English "Lord" is used yet you went and tried to insert "master" thereby implying that the use of the Hebrew and thereby the Greek meant master.

In English, Lord and Master are synonyms. Either one is an adequate translation. I used Master the better to make my point, since there are many ignorant people who falsely believe that the English word Lord always refers to God.

And you might want to rethink that statement that Lord is used in the Hebrew.

Popeyesays · Mar 14, 2006

MidnightBlue said:
This is, rather, an example of your inability to understand plain English. It's not even necessary to check your references, since I never said that the word could not be used of God, and was never used of God. It shouldn't be necessary to remind you of what I did say, since you just quoted it, but let's try again:
The text we have, in Greek, may somewhat obscure the point -- although I really think it's clear in Greek and English. But in Hebrew the Psalm uses a word for "to my lord" (ladonee) that is a form of the common noun adon -- lord, master, owner. It's the word by which Eliezer refers to Abraham, and the word by which Joseph's brothers and servants refer to Joseph.

Jesus is saying, "If the Messiah is a descendant of David, why does David call him 'Master'?" It's an interesting question, and would make an interesting thread. But it's not a claim that the Messiah is God.

The word in question is not applied only to God. Therefore, this passage is not proof of a claim to divinity.

And as I said, I think the meaning is clear in English and in Greek. However, there are obviously people, including native speakers of English, who have problems with English, as well.

Its also the same word Joshua uses to refer to Moses in the Torah. The same usage is accorded to Jesus in Greek in the New testament.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · Mar 14, 2006

"6,4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one
(Torah (Law), Devarim (Deuteronomy))"
שמע ישראל;

"Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohaynu Adonai Echad. "

"Adonai" is an entirely different thing from "(ladonee) that is a form of the common noun adon -- lord, master, owner" as Midnight points out.

Much like an Englishman of the middle ages saying "My lord" to his liege in court, and "My Lord" in prayer.

Regards,
Scott

angellous_evangellous · Mar 15, 2006

The words "lord" and "master" are used for God, gods, and human beings in English, Greek, and Hebrew.

sandy whitelinger · Mar 15, 2006

Popeyesays said:
"6,4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one
(Torah (Law), Devarim (Deuteronomy))"
שמע ישראל;

"Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohaynu Adonai Echad. "

"Adonai" is an entirely different thing from "(ladonee) that is a form of the common noun adon -- lord, master, owner" as Midnight points out.

Much like an Englishman of the middle ages saying "My lord" to his liege in court, and "My Lord" in prayer.

Regards,
Scott

All of that is nice but the Hebrew word used in Psalm 110:1 for Lord, as in, "The Lord said unto my Lord..." is'adown.

angellous_evangellous · Mar 15, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
All of that is nice but the Hebrew word used in Psalm 110:1 for Lord, as in, "The Lord said unto my Lord..." is'adown.

Commonly called "Adonai" in English. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonai.

Literally, it means "my Lord."

Are you trying to make a distinction between 'lord' and 'master' in Hebrew or English (or both)?

EDIT: I did find this...
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=master

"Master"
Noun

S: (n) maestro, master (an artist of consummate skill) "a master of the violin"; "one of the old masters"
S: (n) overlord, master, lord (a person who has general authority over others)
S: (n) victor, master, superior (a combatant who is able to defeat rivals)
S: (n) master (directs the work of other)
S: (n) headmaster, schoolmaster, master (presiding officer of a school)
S: (n) master, master copy, original (an original creation (i.e., an audio recording) from which copies can be made)
S: (n) master, captain, sea captain, skipper (an officer who is licensed to command a merchant ship)
S: (n) master (someone who holds a master's degree from academic institution)
S: (n) master, professional (an authority qualified to teach apprentices)
S: (n) passkey, passe-partout, master key, master (key that secures entrance everywhere)

Verb

S: (v) master, get the hang (be or become completely proficient or skilled in) "She mastered Japanese in less than two years"
S: (v) overcome, get over, subdue, surmount, master (get on top of; deal with successfully) "He overcame his shyness"
S: (v) dominate, master (have dominance or the power to defeat over) "Her pain completely mastered her"; "The methods can master the problems"
S: (v) master, control (have a firm understanding or knowledge of; be on top of) "Do you control these data?"

====

angellous_evangellous · Mar 15, 2006

From the same source

"Lord" - http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Noun

S: (n) Godhead, Lord, Creator, Maker, Divine, God Almighty, Almighty, Jehovah (terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God)
S: (n) overlord, master, lord (a person who has general authority over others)
S: (n) Lord, noble, nobleman (a titled peer of the realm)

Verb

S: (v) lord (make a lord of someone)

Popeyesays · Mar 15, 2006

angellous_evangellous said:
Commonly called "Adonai" in English. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonai.

Literally, it means "my Lord."

Are you trying to make a distinction between 'lord' and 'master' in Hebrew or English (or both)?

She seems to be trying to do both, I think. You're right about is'adown by the way - Adonai in English in both places. I used the "Hear O Israel . . ." because it is the basic statement of faith in Judaism, all else derives from it - including Psalm 110.

Regards,
Scott

angellous_evangellous · Mar 15, 2006

Wow. I took a look at the etemology of "master" in the Oxford Dictionary, and it intersects with "lord" too many times to list.

"Master"
A. n.

I. A person or thing having control or authority.
1. a. gen. A person (predominantly, a man) having authority, direction or control over the action of another or others; a director, leader, chief, commander; a ruler, governor. Now arch.

"Lord"

[OE. hláford, once hláfweard (Ps. civ. 17; Thorpe's to hálf-wearde is a misprint: see note in Gr.-Wülck.), repr. a prehistoric form *hlaiward-, f. *hlai (OE. hláf) bread, loaf + *ward (OE. weard) keeper (seen.). In its primary sense the word (which is absent from the other Teut. langs.) denotes the head of a household in his relation to the servants and dependents who eat his bread (cf. OE. hláf-ta, lit. bread-eater, a servant); but it had already acquired a wider application before the literary period of OE. The development of sense has been largely influenced by the adoption of the word as the customary rendering of L. dominus. The late ON. lávarr is adopted from ME.
With regard to the etymological sense, cf. mod.G. brotherr, lit. bread-lord, an employer of labour. In the mod. Scandinavian langs. meat-mother (Sw. matmoder, Da. madmoder, Icel. matmóir) is the designation applied by servants to their mistress.
For the phonology of the OE. word see Bülbring Ae. Elementarbuch §§367, 411, 562. In the 14th c. the word became monosyllabic through the dropping of the intervocalic v and the crasis of the vowels thus brought into contact.]

I. A master, ruler.

1. A master of servants; the male head of a household. Obs. c950 Lindisf. Gosp. Matt. xxiv. 46 cymes hlaferd his on-fand sua doende. c1000 Ags. Gosp. John xv. 15 Se eowa nat hwæt se hlafor[d] de. a1175 Cott. Hom. 241 Nan ne mai twan hlaforde..samod owie. c1250 Gen. & Ex. 1388 is maiden wile ic..to min louerdes bofte bi-crauen. a1300 Cursor M. 6691 If he [his thain] liue ouer a dai or tuin, e lauerd sal vnderli na pain. c1420 Sir Amadace (Camden) l, He wold gif hom toe so muche, or ellus more, As any lord wold euyr or qware. c1450 Howlat 145 Bot thir lordis belyf [thai] the letteris has tane. 1611 BIBLE Matt. xxiv. 46.

2. a. One who has dominion over others as his subjects, or to whom service and obedience are due; a master, chief, prince, sovereign. Now only rhetorical. Also lord and master. Also, a husband (now usu. joc.); cf. sense 4 below.

angellous_evangellous · Mar 15, 2006

Popeyesays said:
She seems to be trying to do both, I think. You're right about is'adown by the way - Adonai in English in both places. I used the "Hear O Israel . . ." because it is the basic statement of faith in Judaism, all else derives from it - including Psalm 110.

Regards,
Scott

That's what I thought you were doing...

sandy whitelinger · Mar 16, 2006

Popeyesays said:
She seems to be trying to do both, I think. You're right about is'adown by the way - Adonai in English in both places. I used the "Hear O Israel . . ." because it is the basic statement of faith in Judaism, all else derives from it - including Psalm 110.

Regards,
Scott

As to what I'm doing, which part this do you not understand:

"The claim here is that the Hebrew term used in Psalm 110:1 which refers to the Messiah is not an Hebrew word which refers to God.... That particular word in Hebrew refers to God at least 25 times:

Deut. 10:17 (twice), Josh, 3:11 and 3:13, Jgs, 6:13, Neh. 8:10 and 10:29, Ps8:1 and 9, Ps. 97:5, Ps. 114:7, Ps. 135:5, Ps. 136:3 (twice), Ps 147:5, Is. 1:24, Is 3:1, Is. 10:33, Is 19:30, Is. 51:22, Hos. 12:14, Mic 4:13, Zec. 4:4 and 6:5, and Mal. 3:1."

Popeyesays · Mar 16, 2006

Psalm 110 translated from the Hebrew into English:
"110,1 A Psalm of David. {N}
The LORD saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'
110,2 The rod of Thy strength the LORD will send out of Zion: 'Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.'
110,3 Thy people offer themselves willingly in the day of thy warfare; {N}
in adornments of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, thine is the dew of thy youth.
110,4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent: 'Thou art a priest for ever {N}
after the manner of Melchizedek.'
110,5 The Lord at thy right hand doth crush kings in the day of His wrath.
110,6 He will judge among the nations; He filleth it with dead bodies, He crusheth the head over a wide land.
110,7 He will drink of the brook in the way; therefore will he lift up the head. {P}
(Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))"

You have to believe that Christ was interested in the mantle of Melchizedek to think this refers to the Moisach (Messiah). Was He interested in a priesthood, or was He more important than that.

Regards,
Scott

sandy whitelinger · Mar 16, 2006

Popeyesays said:
You have to believe that Christ was interested in the mantle of Melchizedek to think this refers to the Moisach (Messiah). Was He interested in a priesthood, or was He more important than that.

Regards,
Scott

Or else I just have to Read Mathew 22.

[42] "Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
[43] He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
[44] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Or do you not believe Christ to be the Messiah?

sandy whitelinger · Mar 16, 2006

Popeyesays said:
You have to believe that Christ was interested in the mantle of Melchizedek to think this refers to the Moisach (Messiah). Was He interested in a priesthood, or was He more important than that.

Regards,
Scott

Or perhaps Hebrews 5.

[5] So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
[6] As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
[7] Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
[8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
[10] Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Mister_T · Mar 16, 2006

This is one example of what I say when I point out how people use original language to try and distort scriptural meaning

People distort scriptual meaning with the English version as well. What's your point? You've been pushing this topic for a while to no avail.

Jayhawker Soule · Mar 16, 2006

sandy whitelinger said:
As to what I'm doing, which part this do you not understand: ...

Your unwillingness to listen to those who know more than you.

sandy whitelinger · Mar 17, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
Your unwillingness to listen to those who know more than you.

Thank you for calling and sharing......

Letting your water out again?

Is Jesus God and How Not to Use Hebrew

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