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Is Jesus For the Jews?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism DIR' started by susemuse, Feb 19, 2005.

  1. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    however HaShem has already said that he would keep his covenant w/ the Children of Israel for eternity, even in the messianic redemption...
     
  2. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I just came across this on my journey.
     
  3. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    the Moshiach ben David will be of the house of David (some say also that the moshiach must also be a direct desendant of Solomon who ruled after David) but the lineage will be patrelineal, not matrelineal so Mary's blood line is of no consequence.
     
  4. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I found this quote on the internet:
    "According to Jewish law, a person is always Jewish - regardless of whether they reject their heritage, ignore it, or practice another religion. In the book of Joshua 7:11, G-d declares that "Israel has sinned" due to a severe transgression done by the nation. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 44a) explains: Even though Israel has sinned, God still calls they by the name 'Israel.' In other words, they are still considered Jews. And that is how we know that a Jew is always a Jew no matter what.
    Rabbi Shraga Simmons"


    So, it appears that for the sake of clarity, Messianic Jews are Jews who believe in Christ as the Messiah.
     
  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    many of the Messianic jews i have personally met, are Gentiles who are in no way halachically Jews and this tends to be the rule rather than the exception.
    Don't be confused, "messianic judaism" is christianity and a well funded missionairy group at that...
     
  6. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I'd always thought Messianic Jew was someone who followed Judaic Law but believed Jesus was Messiah. I had to go look up what "halachically" meant and if I understand it correctly, while a Gentile can convert to Judaism, they're not necessarily accepted by all Jews as Jewish.

    Too complicated for me. I'm beginning to be glad I don't affiliate with any religion! :eek:
     
  7. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    yes well most messianic jews, as i've said, tend to not be actually jewish in any sense though they may follow Mitzvot that doesn't make them jewish (i should know i do and i'm not, at least not yet:) , converting to judaism is hard)
    to be "halachically" considered "jewish" through conversion you more than likely have to convert orthodox, otherwise some people will tend to question your "jewishness" as a convert, especially if they are a butt!
    personally i could really care less whether you convert reform, conservative, or orthodox...
    but messianic jews are no more than christian missionaries who hide by wearing tzitzit and yarmulkes
    i used to see them all the time handing out pamplets and missionary liturature like 3 blocks away from the Hillel at VCU:eek:
     
  8. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    Jesus was a Jew. He was of the tribe of Judah from the line of David. He practiced the feasts then.
    Zechariah 12.9 "And it shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destrop all the nations that come against Jerusalem."
    It sounds like those who are against Jeruslaem are against God. God is Jesus' Father who He respected and wanted us to respect. Therefore Jesus wouldn't want any person or group of people to be against Jerusalem. When He comes again, He will stand on the mount {I think the temple mount in Jerusalem}.

    He was willing to be crucified in order to atone for their sins as well as for the sins of those that are not of the tribe of Judah or Israel. If He was willing to be the sacrificial lamb to save them from their sins, He wouldn't want anyone to harm them. Why would he approve of people persecuting them or disrespecting them as some so called Christians have done in the past if he was willing to die for them to save them, Save them from sin or spiritual death.

    Yes. Jesus if for the Jews and Christians who represent Him should be too. As a Christian I say this.

    According to the word of God, hitler {he doesn't deserve a capital h} is in hell and Jesus, his judge, put him there.
     
  9. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    this does not make him the Moshiach ben David.
    He never completed the task...he was executed for being a troublemaker by the Romans and that, as far as Judaism is concerned, is the end of the story.
     
  10. Darkdale

    Darkdale World Leader Pretend

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    Excellent, excellent point.
     
  11. Deut 13:1

    Deut 13:1 Well-Known Member

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    So he wasn't G-d? Cool.
     
  12. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    I'm curious as to what task you speak of?

    ~Victor
     
  13. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm#What

    these are things, for the most part, have yet to be accomplished and most certainly were not accomplished by Jesus
     
  14. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Gotcha...Makes perfect sense as to the struggles in the NT. Thanks. :bounce

    ~Victor
     
  15. Emmalyn

    Emmalyn Messianic Judaism

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    Since those of us who believe Yeshua is the Messiah are considered apostate, this view is certainly understandable, although inaccurate.

    Christians (Jew or Gentile) believe the Torah has been voided. While they say they believe the Torah defines sin, they give vague nebulous reasons as to why they don't try to abide by it, but rather let the "Spirit" tell them what is right and wrong. Which apparently is why they can't even agree on baptism.

    Messianic Jews believe the Torah has not been voided. That we are to continue to obey God's commandments. There is some disagreement within the Messianic community as to whether or not the Gentiles are to be Torah obedient, but my personal belief based on study is that God gave one law for both the Jew and the Gentile.
     
  16. WordofMessiah

    WordofMessiah New Member

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    Yashah is surely for the Jewish people. Yashah said in Matt 15:24,"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." The Hebrew people are His people, and He will make a covenant with them in the last days(Jeremiah 31:31-34 & Hebrews 8:8-12).
     
  17. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Here is some of what Maimonides had to say regarding the Messiah:

    "The anointed king is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem and gather the strayed ones of Israel together. All laws will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings are offered and the Sabbatical years and Jubilees are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and Moses our teacher. For the Torah testifies about him, thus: "And the Lord Your God will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you... If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven... And He shall bring you" etc.(Deuteronomy 30:3-5)."

    "These words that are explicitly stated in the Torah, encompass and include all the words spoken by all the prophets. In the section of Torah referring to Bala'am, too, it is stated, and there he prophesied about the two anointed ones: The first anointed one is David, who saved Israel from all their oppressors; and the last anointed one will stand up from among his descendants and saves Israel in the end. This is what he says (Numbers 24:17-18): "I see him but not now" - this is David; "I behold him but not near" - this is the anointed king. "A star has shot forth from Jacob" - this is David; "And a brand will rise up from Israel" - this is the anointed king. "And he will smash the edges of Moab" - This is David, as it states: "...And he struck Moab and measured them by rope" (II Samuel 8:2); "And he will uproot all Children of Seth" - this is the anointed king, of whom it is stated: "And his reign shall be from sea to sea" (Zechariah 9:10). "And Edom shall be possessed" - this is David, thus: "And Edom became David's as slaves etc." (II Samuel 8:6); "And Se'ir shall be possessed by its enemy" - this is the anointed king, thus: "And saviors shall go up Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the Lord's" (Obadiah 1:21)."

    "And by the Towns of Refuge it states: "And if the Lord your God will widen up your territory... you shall add on for you another three towns" etc. (Deuteronomy 19:8-9). Now this thing never happened; and the Holy One does not command in vain. But as for the words of the prophets, this matter needs no proof, as all their books are full with this issue."

    "Do not imagine that the anointed king must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiva was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was the assistant-warrior of the king Bar Kokhba, and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign...

    "And if a king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and indulging in commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded and built a Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the disperesed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder (Zephaniah 3:9)."

    "But if he did not succeed to this degree, or if he was killed, it becomes known that he is not this one of whom the Torah had promised us, and he is indeed like all proper and wholesome kings of the House of David who died. The Holy One, Blessed Be He, only set him up to try the public by him, thus: "Some of the wise men will stumble in clarifying these words, and in elucidating and interpreting when the time of the end will be, for it is not yet the designated time." (Daniel 11:35)."





     
  18. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    This is what Maimonides had to say about Jesus:

    "As for Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed to be the anointed one and was condemned by the Sanhedrin. Daniel had already prophesied about him, thus: 'And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble.' (Ibid. 14) Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the anointed one saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for his thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of Yeshu of Nazareth and of Muhammad who stood up after him are only intended to pave the way for the anointed king, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: 'For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder.'"

    "How is this? The entire world had become filled with the issues of the anointed one and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws. These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. But when the anointed king will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray."
     
  19. Zardoz

    Zardoz Wonderful Wizard
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    Ah, yes, from the 'Hilkhot Melakhim Umilchamoteihem'(Laws of Kings and Wars)

    The important point is this:

    In answer to the OP question, 'Jesus' (Christianity) is not for the Jews (Beit Israel) but rather for Beit Esau (Rome, Edom) as Islam is for Beit Ishmael. These paths were made by G-d for these descendants of Abraham to patch the relationship with G-d that the coming destruction of the Temple would sever.

    As for RAMBAM's other teachings of the Davidic Kingdom that is absolutely true and an excellent reason why Messianic Jews should not make the same mistake of Christians as acknowledge Yeshua as Messiah ben David, for the simple reason he is NOT. Yeshua is only Messiah ben Yosef, as is every Jew until the final Messiah comes and fulfills all and restores us all.
     
  20. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    :no:

    Details about him are not found until much later, but he has an established place in the apocalypses of later centuries, such as the Apocalypse of Zerubbabel, and in the midrash literature—in Saadia's description of the future (Emunot we-De'ot, ch. viii.) and in that of Hai Gaon (Ṭa'am Zeḳenim, p. 59). According to these, Messiah b. Joseph will appear prior to the coming of Messiah ben David; he will gather the children of Israel around him, march to Jerusalem, and there, after overcoming the hostile powers, reestablish the Temple-worship and set up his own dominion. Thereupon Armilus, according to one group of sources, or Gog and Magog, according to the other, will appear with their hosts before Jerusalem, wage war against Messiah ben Joseph, and slay him. His corpse, according to one group, will lie unburied in the streets of Jerusalem; according to the other, it will be hidden by the angels with the bodies of the Patriarchs, until Messiah ben David comes and resurrects him (comp. Jew. Encyc. i. 682, 684 [§§ 8 and 13]; comp. also Midr. Wayosha' and Agadat ha-Mashiaḥ in A. Jellinek, B. H. i. 55 et seq., iii. 141 et seq.).


    He's supposed to be a contemporary of Moshiach ben David.


    Jesus was not Messiah ben David.

    Jesus was not Messiah ben Joseph.

    He wasn't a messiah at all.
     
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