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Featured Is Jesus an angel?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by calm, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. calm

    calm Active Member

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    You're the one who's saying it only has to be one if "the" is written. Also the Bible writes "the" angel but you admit that there are still several angels. Why do you use the one argument for the other but not for this one? You contradict yourself.
    In 1 Samuel 22:5 it says "the" prophet, is there now only one prophet too?
    The phrase "firstborn of all creation" is not dealing with time, but status and position. It does not mean that Jesus is the first created thing. It means that Jesus is the one who is preeminent, the most important.
    Here's the explanation: What does it mean that Jesus is the firstborn of creation? | CARM.org /
    Col. 1:15, "firstborn of all creation" | CARM.org
    Show me a passage in the Bible where fallen angels are identified as demons.
     
    #161 calm, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
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  2. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Just because some believe something doesnt mean it has any validity. Their arguments from the source must make sense.

    The Bible does say that Michael is one of the Chief Princes. We must figure out what that phrase means. Clearly Michael is equal in rank to other chief princes. And the Bible doesnt even tell us much about what qualifies as a chief prince. It would be weird if Michael is the only Archangel but one of many chief princes, but not THE chief prince. Could it be that the other Chief Princes are also archangels?

    And if Jesus is Michael, then why would he be only one of many chief princes?

    And do any of the scriptures force a conclusion that Jesus is Michael? Because they seem very ambiguous depending on the eisegesis of certain beliefs.

    And yeah, all messengers are angels as angel just means messenger. It is actually a vague term. Cherub and Seraph are more specific terms.

    I dont know why you mentioned not "just" an angel. It seems like a relative statement. One could equally say that John Doe is not "just" a human because he is far more powerful than an ant. Or Michael is "just" an angel because he is not as powerful as God.
     
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  3. calm

    calm Active Member

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    @Deeje
    And if Michael is the only archangel, why is it written in Daniel 10:13 that he is one of the chief princes?

    But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

    Don't you realize how you keep contradicting the Bible?
     
    #163 calm, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Principalities refer to the rule of princes. The prince of Persia was one of these principalities. Michael, one of the chief princes.
     
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  5. calm

    calm Active Member

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    @Israel Khan
    The Bible mentions the term "archangel" only 2 times.
    Nevertheless the archangels are often mentioned. The prophets do not always use the word "archangel" they also call them "chief princes", "holy angels" or "the seven angels".
    Daniel 10:13
    The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,
    Revelation 14:10
    He also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
    Revelation 17:1
    Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters.

    The Bible does not say that there is only one Archangel, it says that there are several, and Jehovah's Witnesses and Adventists do not understand that.
    Also the book Enoch does not mention the term "Archangel", he calls them the "Holy Angels" just like in the Bible.
     
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  6. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    This is intriguing (aa your posts usually are). I just checked the meaning of principalities:

    principality
    /ˌprɪnsɪˈpalɪti/
    noun
    plural noun: principalities
    1. 1.
      a state ruled by a prince.
      • BRITISH
        Wales.
        singular proper noun: Principality; noun: the Principality
    2. 2.
      (in traditional Christian angelology) the fifth-highest order of the ninefold celestial hierarchy

    Never thought of this before.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    In the Coptic Orthodox tradition the seven archangels are named as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Suriel, Zadkiel, Sarathiel, and Ananiel.
     
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  8. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    So, just to scrutinise, how do you link Chief Princes, Holy Angels and the Seven Angels to being Archangels?
     
  9. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I am reading Paradise Lost by John Milton and what I found interesting is that Uriel, who Satan meets on his way to earth, is one of the seven spirits mentioned in Revelation and is an Archangel in that book. Where does the idea of seven archangels come from?
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Persian history is so bloody complicated it will make your head spin. Principalities in Persia were called Satrapies.. The seven angels in Revelation are princes.
     
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  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Not sure.. Here's a spiritual take off.



    1. Who are Archangels?
    2. Archangel Michael, the Warrior Angel
    3. Archangel Raphael, the Healing Angel
    4. Archangel Gabriel, the Messenger Angel
    5. Archangel Jophiel, the Angel of Beauty
    6. Archangel Ariel, the Angel of Nature and Animals
    7. Archangel Azrael, the Angel of Death
    8. Archangel Chamuel, Angel of Peaceful Relationships

    Read more at The 7 Archangels and Their Meanings
     
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  12. calm

    calm Active Member

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    Michael is mentioned in Daniel as one of the " chief princes ", thus it is clear that this title is another word for " archangel ". "Archangel" actually means "chief angel".
    In the book of Enoch the 7 archangels are called "holy angels", from which we can conclude that the "holy angels" and the " seven angels" mentioned in the Bible are the archangels.
     
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  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The confusion seems to arise because they are viewed differently depending on religious beliefs. The folklore is quite fluid.

    According to rabbinic Jewish tradition, Michael acted as the advocate of Israel, and sometimes had to fight with the princes of the other nations (cf. 10:13) and particularly with the angel Samael, Israel's accuser. So Michael is the warrior angel.

    Michael (archangel) - Wikipedia
     
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  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Also, regarding this topic, what does eveybody think is the implication of Hebrews 1?

    My current understanding of possible implications are:
    - It could completely exclude Jesus from being an angel.
    - It could mean that Jesus was an angel before he was a man but then the scripture only applies to him as a man.
    - At the moment he is no longer an angel because he cannot be at the right hand of God while being an angel meaning that he cannot be Michael at the moment.

    Thoughts?
     
  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Ahh... I see. That makes sense if Enoch is seen as scripture. But we know that at least Jude references that book so it has some validity.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Enoch only dates to the 2nd or 3rd century BC and is considered to be a collection of Jewish folklore and legend that borrows heavily from the legends of Babylon and Sumer.
     
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  17. calm

    calm Active Member

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    Enoch names the true names and the true tasks of each archangel.
    1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch.
    2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus.
    3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men.
    4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries.
    5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ over chaos.
    6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit.
    7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.
    8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
     
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  18. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I have dabbled in Persian history a bit. It is quite complicated. So then.... angels are princes or is it specifically those 7 in revelation?
     
  19. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    But the book is still referenced in the NT right?
     
  20. calm

    calm Active Member

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    Why don't you say that to the Book of Daniel? Daniel is younger.
    The giants in the book Enoch that you portray as myth are also mentioned in Genesis.
     
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