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Is Jesus a golden calf?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Khale, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. Khale

    Khale Active Member

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    Most people know the story of the Israelites and the golden calf. What a lot of people don't know is that the calf that was created was a sphinx like creature who's most prominent feature was its calf body. These creatures were believed to carry God down to earth. After a length of time people forgot God and began worshipping these sphinxes as God. Essentially they elevated something to a deific level because it was so close to the Holy One.

    My Question then is this: Is it possible that Jesus might have been a good prophet (as many people believe) that was turned into a deity by his followers?

    This question assumes that Jesus was at the very least a real person so answer accordingly.
     
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  2. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    It is extremely possible!
     
  3. Lintu

    Lintu Active Member

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    I don't see why not. Jesus distinguishes himself from God many times in the gospels, and in one of them (Luke?) he cries out to God, "Why have you forsaken me?" This does not sound like the reaction of someone who is God in human form. I just don't get the impression that he is supposed to be equal to God. Of course, there are also scriptural references that do give him divine characteristics, so it's hard to say.

    The problem is that all of our references were written by people who could have wanted to make him look like God or whatever else they had in mind.
     
  4. Khale

    Khale Active Member

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    Here is an interesting little fact that I learned recently. The Line "Why have you forsaken me?" is actually the beginning to Psalm 22. The equivalent to saying something like Sticks and stones in response to an insult. That particular Psalm is a fairly hopeful one that describes how God is always near.

    It is true that all of the references we have are written by people that wanted to make him look like God. Also, on top of that quite a bit, if not all, of the four gospels are Theology and not factual information.
     
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  5. goodjewishboy

    goodjewishboy Shalom!

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    Don't know if this is the right thread to post this in, but here's a short (and probably incomplete) list of requirements for the Moshiach (messiah)

    First, the word Moshiach does not mean savior it translates to the anointed one.

    following comes directly from www.jewfaq.org

    Clearly Jesus did not fulfill the requirements, The world is not at peace, it's far from it. It is clear that the moshiach will be born naturally with a human mother and father. Nowhere in the Bible does it predict he (or she i guess) will be born to a virgin. The Jewish messiah is expected to return the Jews to their land and rebuild the Temple, Jesus was born before the exile and was born while the Temple was still standing and in use. The Jewish Bible says the messiah will redeem Israel, shortly after Jesus's death Jerusalem was laid to waste and the Holy Temple was destroyed, the Jewish people were scattered and percecuted for nearly 2000 years by the very people who claimed to follow Jesus Christ.

    That's all I'm going to write, if you want to read more follow this link:

    http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/pdf/RealMessiahBookPages_v4ab.pdf
     
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  6. Khale

    Khale Active Member

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    No argument here. I don't believe I have read anything in the bible that actually predicts the birth of Jesus.

    I do have a couple questions about the messianic predictions:

    -What time period(s) were each of these predictions written and what was going on during that time period(s)?

    -How likely is it that the prophets were writing what they expected the messiah to be and not what the messiah actually was to be?

    One of the things I'd like to point out is that God often works in ways that seem to be at odds with what people think should happen. This is especially apparent in the Hebrew scriptures. Jeremiah was a prime example of this. God forces him to live a cursed life because he is doing Gods will. So much so that Jeremiah curses God on a number of occasions in some of the worst ways imaginable.
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    OK,

    I just went down the requirements and failed to see the one he didn't fulfill. Maybe you could point this out... but a new thread may be appropriate for that discussion.

    As for the question at hand... that predicates that Jesus was either a loon or a liar. Or that his followers completely misrepresented what he said, and so the same can be said about them. I see no reason to accept any of those premises.

    The problem with “what if” questions, is that they go past any logical progression and bypass the real reasons for disbelief. You don't have to create a parallel philosophy in order to reject the Christ. Just say you don't believe and move on.
     
  8. Jaymes

    Jaymes The cake is a lie

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    I must have missed the part where Jesus became a military leader and went into battle for Israel. I thought that wasn't his thing.
     
  9. Lintu

    Lintu Active Member

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    Jesus was not a blood descendant of King David.
     
  10. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Is that it?

    Do we have the lineage of Mary anywhere?

    (But I do think we are off topic here).
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    And he is leading us to this day! Our Lord defeated even Death and leads forth the army of a Spiritual Israel against the forces of darkness.
     
  12. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    I already started a thread discussing whether or not Jesus was a Jewish Messiah

    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6327
     
  13. Khale

    Khale Active Member

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    I would like to point out that the Messiah that the Jews had been hoping for would lead them to victory and establish them as the supreme race. This is not at all what Jesus did his followers were persecuted and the only thing he told them to do was to allow it to happen. The jewish messiah would have fought back and conquered those who had wronged them. I would also like to point out that they were speaking of victory literally in the physical world. None of this kingdom in heaven stuff that is prevalent today. (jewscout and goodjewishboy stop me if I've got this wrong)


    The question was not wether or not Jesus was or his followers were crazy. It was simply trying to see wether or not his followers made him into something he was not. The reason to accept the premise of this question is that it has happened before. In fact, if i understand correctly, it had happened many times before in the ancient world. It still happens today as well. There are people who worship Bob Marley as God because he played good music. It is not hard to believe that a radical person like Jesus could have been elevated like that.



    What if questions also create a better understanding of the faith in question. If you do not take the time to question your faith you will never truly understand it. If you never truly understand your faith it is inevitable that it will crumble under scrutiny.

    I am, quite frankly, appalled that you would tell me to denounce my religion because I had questions about it. Words like this are what taint the name of Christianity and turn people away.
     
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  14. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    No i think you're right on the money!:jiggy:
     
  15. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I have to scoot Khale so I will make just one point...

    I would suggest that you have knowingly twisted my words here. Could it be that you don't want any answers that digress from your preconceptions?

    You can't approach spiritual matters with your mind set dead on the physical. God is spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and in truth.
     
  16. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    does anyone have a line back to king david?*also, i believe he was in line.

    how will this be possible without a temple?

    imo, no.
     
  17. Khale

    Khale Active Member

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    Let's take a look at what I said:

    Now let's take a look at your reply:

    You just said that I created my question in order to reject Christ. You then followed by saying that I should Denounce him as my Lord and move on with my life. How on earth did I twist you words? Or did you sneakily hide some text elsewhere in your post? Could it be that your preconceptions are preventing you from looking at the original question with clear eyes?
     
  18. goodjewishboy

    goodjewishboy Shalom!

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    Judaism is not a race, we do not hold ourselves higher than any other people. The Messsianic age will bring about the redemption of all nations. I don't disagree with the rest of your post. I've had someone tell me that since I've rejected Jesus than I must believe he was crazy or a liar, problem is that I never accepted him in the frst place. I believe by elevating Jesus to divine status, his follwers made him into something he is not.
     
  19. Lintu

    Lintu Active Member

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    To be in line with David, he would have had to have a blood line relationship to David. This lineage must also go through Solomon. Even if Joseph was a descendant of David and Solomon, Jesus was not his biological son. Therefore, Jesus is not a descendant of David.
     
  20. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    there was a good reason for that.joseph's uncle or something inherited a curse from [yhwh].you don't have to be blood related to get to the throne, and he didn't have to be first in line.

    sry for not having evidence to point to, if you doubt the curse i cited, request it and i'll get to it.
     
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