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Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

Discussion in 'Ethics and Morals' started by Galen.Iksnudnard, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. DallasApple

    DallasApple Depends Upon My Mood..

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  2. Poeticus

    Poeticus | abhyAvartin |

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    Hehehe. It's one of my favorite photos. It reminds me of the innocence of my early youth. Plus, that bad*** toddler in that photo is smirking like a boss. Muahahaha!
     
    #162 Poeticus, Aug 20, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  3. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Does he seem innocent to you?!
    He looks like an old geezer that happened to find the youth fountain!
     
  4. Poeticus

    Poeticus | abhyAvartin |

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    Boo hoo! The dude's a G and you kno' it, brah. :D
     
  5. Penumbra

    Penumbra Veteran Member
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    She had casual sex with someone who was attracted to her. :shrug:

    He believed she was a woman, and she is. I don't think chromosomes entered his mind at all when choosing to have sex with her.

    Sorry, but I disagree. It's a mathematically reasonable statement to conclude that a man has XY chromosomes and a woman has XX chromosomes, but it's not always the case, and it has absolutely no impact on their night of sex, so it's an invisible problem in his view and if he is phobic about something like that, I think he ought to inquire about it before hand, to take responsibility of his own emotions.

    So, Tom's the one throwing the temper tantrum and she didn't harm him. It's his issue to work out now, not her ethical fault, imo.

    You said two wrongs don't make right.

    I'd agree, except I don't think a wrong was done.

    Many, but how many? Most? I don't know. I know most heterosexual men wouldn't want to sleep with someone they perceive to have visibly masculine characteristics, but I have no idea how many men would throw a fit if they sleep with a woman they are attracted to only to later find out about her medical history.

    Besides, how emotionally harmed is he? He had sex with a woman he was attracted to, then due to an invisible "problem", throws a fit later.

    I did, with numerous examples. Some omissions can lead to harm, which is unethical, and other omissions have zero impact on the sex, like what her ethnic history is or what her medical history is, when it doesn't affect their night.

    The answer depends on what you mean by "harm". If I "harm" a Christian by debating Christianity with her as a non-Christian, am I harming her if she feels bad after we're done? Am I responsible for her feelings, assuming I'm reasonably polite when doing so?
     
  6. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    He believed she was not a trans. :shrug:

    Where did that come from?
    The reasonable statement in this case is to assume someone is a cisgender woman if she looks like a woman.

    Considering it was a deal breaker it is obvious it has relevancy to his one night stand with her.

    Indeed, in your opinion. So?

    You got lost on the conversation, right?

    It is sufficient to say: many.
    A relevant enough number.
    We could actually make a poll with this kind of question.
    Although i doubt it would properly represent our societies.

    This goes way back to my question you didn't answer in my previous posts.

    Perhaps, for some odd reason, you didn't comprehend the question. It has nothing to do with your answers.

    I will rephrase it: Do you recognize something to be wrong looking strictly at whether it has caused harm?

    I am using the word 'harm' in the same way that you used it in this quote:

     
  7. Penumbra

    Penumbra Veteran Member
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    He didn't ask. She didn't necessarily know what he knew about her.

    Maybe they should have played twenty questions before having casual sex with each other.

    Where it came from is that I'm differentiating between reasonable mathematical assumptions, and reasonable assumptions that a person should make if they have a phobia about something when a simple question can solve it.

    So what is the counter-point? Your opinion?

    Nope, did you?

    Which question did I not answer?

    What do you mean it has nothing to do with my answers? I answered your question and you said I didn't, so it has everything to do with my answers. I even elaborated to make my answer more specific than your question.

    I specifically used "physical harm" in that quote.

    I also believe purposely or ignorantly causing someone major emotional harm would be unethical, like if I bullied some kid at school.

    But, if my being an atheist "harms" someone who gets all bent out of shape about that, or if Shirley "harms" someone that was attracted to her and gets mad about invisible aspects of her medical history that don't affect him, then I think the responsibility is on the person feeling those emotions rather than being something that I did simply by being an atheist, or she did simply by having a transsexual medical history.
     
  8. InformedIgnorance

    InformedIgnorance Do you 'know' or believe?

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    That seems a reasonable assumption given the general attitude of men.
     
  9. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    He didn't ask indeed.
    The point is that she omitted it.

    First of all, you have to establish he has some sort of phobia.
    Second, it is not a matter of whether he should make a particular assumption in that particular instance. But rather whether it is reasonable of him to make it.

    I am sticking to what is written in the OP.
    There is absolutely no reason to conclude that Tom is transphobic.

    You are beginning to lose context in your replies. :rolleyes:

    You still didn't answer my question. And that you firmly believe that you did is the funny part.

    I am going to rephrase my question once again: If no harm is caused by a given action, would you conclude that it is not immoral?
     
  10. Horrorble

    Horrorble Well-Known Member

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    I think that depends though, I'm from Britian and I don't think we are too bothered down here, a shag is a shag is a shag to British men :D
     
  11. Panda

    Panda 42?
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    I would say no to this because I think when it comes to sexual relationships people should be allowed to reject whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

    No, I wouldn't say they are obligated to do so but I think it would be beneficial to avoid future harmful outcomes.

    No. Sexual preference is entirety that, a preference. Different people prefer different things in both looks and personality so I don't really see this as any different.
     
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  12. DallasApple

    DallasApple Depends Upon My Mood..

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    NM. Trouble posting.
     
    #172 DallasApple, Aug 21, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  13. DallasApple

    DallasApple Depends Upon My Mood..

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    Forget it .its stuck on that one..
     
  14. Poeticus

    Poeticus | abhyAvartin |

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    Hehe. Awww.
     
  15. Penumbra

    Penumbra Veteran Member
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    And he omitted the fact that he has an issue with trans people.

    Why is omitting a fact about her medical history that has no actual impact on him, a problem?

    I've yet to see any valid reason for why he would be upset over sleeping with someone who he was attracted to, and who did no harm to him, other than a phobia.

    Nope.

    I've already answered that, and in more detail than you asked. It depends what you mean by harm. You defined harm as physical harm but I also pointed that that purposely causing emotional harm is unethical too.

    I certainly don't think it's immoral if a person does nothing wrong, does not physically harm them in any way, doesn't purposely emotionally harm them, doesn't do anything that should reasonably emotionally harm them, etc. Two people were attracted to each other and slept together, and nobody was married or had an STD or anything like that.
     
  16. InformedIgnorance

    InformedIgnorance Do you 'know' or believe?

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    It's possible, I do not know UK Demographics well enough to comment, though I very much doubt given the level of racism that other marginalised groups would somehow be free of such problems.
     
  17. The Sum of Awe

    The Sum of Awe Realitarian

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    No no no

    I pretty much agree with Q
     
  18. Flankerl

    Flankerl Well-Known Member

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    Penumbra i think you really need to get over the fact that he doesnt have a phobia.

    He simply likes women, as in biological real women.


    You think that he/she is a real woman. But guess what thats just your opinion. Biologically he/she isnt. Now dont go that road that some biological women cant get children because of defects. They are called defects for a reason.(hint: Its because its not supposed to be that way)



    Our guy in question is just the regular guy. He probably thinks that over 95% of all women he sees everyday are real biological women. So why should he/she differ?


    Was he sexually attracted to him/her? Who knows. There are those stories that some heterosexual men land in the sack with homosexual men and later regret it.
    They arent homophibic. It probably simply happened in a certain moment under a certain condition. Such is life. Like in the story of this thread.



    If this happens often to him/her then he/she should probably be more open about his/her history. You cant expect every guy on this planet to ask his potential date if he or she is a biological woman. Thats just crazy.
     
    #178 Flankerl, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
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  19. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    The OP doesn't state he has an issue with trans people.

    It has an impact on him. Because he wouldn't have had sex with her if he knew it.

    I already stated one.
    He felt being mislead.

    Something is only immoral if it is wrong. That much is obvious.

    If someone were to break into your house and sleep on your couch, has he done anything wrong? Would your answer change depending on whether you were aware of him doing it?
     
  20. Breathe

    Breathe Hostis humani generis

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    Not to mention that would probably be quite insulting to a large chunk of women out there.

    Imagine just before, er, that, and your partner says, "Now, I just want to make sure: you WERE born female, right?"


    I have this crazy, outlandish belief that someone who isn't attracted to men isn't necessarily homophobic, someone who isn't attracted to transgender folk isn't necessarily transphobic, someone who isn't attracted to black, White, Latino, or Arabic people isn't necessarily racist.
     
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